What is the difference between TM and Vipassana?

[DanielKotzer]

Well, you started by saying: "Objective Meditation that is unfocused is the style of meditation based on a mantra. The mantra is not physically observed, but is allowed to be repeated...

And then you said: "When the mantra is allowed to flow without control, it becomes simply observed by our self awareness and we detach from the thoughts..."

--- Not physically observed but observed by our self awareness... Can't figure that one out.

On one of the movies I saw on YouTube, in which breathing meditation was taught, they said explicitly: don't chant any mantra, because mantra chanting is the activity of the mind and you need to quiet your mind. The breathing technique is the starting point of Vipassana, which is the meditation style taught by Buddha.

It seems to me, one conclusion can be drawn out of this discussion: There is a fundamental contradiction between the two – mantra unfocused meditation and Vipassana focused meditation, and if you try to combine the two by regulating the mantra with the breathing rhythm, you compromise both of them.

[pollyanna]

Hi Daniel,

"The hard part is to quiet the mental activity. How do you stop yourself from thinking? Thoughts about the past and about the future, tend to spoil our happiness sensation in the present. What can one do to stop thoughts from spoiling his happiness, at least for 10 minutes, so he can rejuvenate himself?"

In the past I've watched the candle of a flame with anticipation, paid for and practised T.M. for a while(along with other things) and thought that my thoughts and emotions were me and allowed them to control and direct my life. When I was working I was thinking about my family and when I was with my family I was thinking of what I needed to do. My thoughts were as constant as a tape recorder on loop.

I didn't realise at the time that I was trying so hard to find my "self". I didn't realise that all my thoughts, emotions and perceptions were a culmination of everything I had experienced throughout my life. I didn't realise that anything that did not match my belief system was automatically filtered away and never even looked at.

I thought "meditation" was something mystical and unfamiliar however I had a strong reason to investigate it.

I had no idea that there was an inner space within each of us that is our natural and precious source and that resting there a few minutes a day could be so beneficial.

Some people live with rigid belief patterns all their lives, unaware that they have the power to choose to change some of them.

Just to become aware that your thoughts are not you is a great step towards freedom from the prison they can keep you in.

Now I know that thoughts are just thoughts and I do not need to attach myself to them. Now I am aware of this, most of the old ones no longer play because they have been replaced with enjoying the present moment in whatever I am doing.

Meditation is just a word, a name that's given to simply entering into the quiet space within - a space we can enter at any given moment once we are familiar with it. And the mantra or whichever technique you choose is just a technique to help us to discover this forgotten, priceless resource.

The greatest piece of advice I can offer is to relax, not try and just accept the fact that you will become consciously aware of all kinds of bodily sensations. However nice some of them are, they are of no importance. It's not necessary to analyse everything - just practice a little every day and notice the difference in your daily life.

Being present in your daily life is a priceless gift. Hope this helps and wish you much peace and joy

[GilesC]

Great advice from Polly as always.

Originally Posted by DanielKotzer

Well, you started by saying: "Objective Meditation that is unfocused is the style of meditation based on a mantra. The mantra is not physically observed, but is allowed to be repeated...

And then you said: "When the mantra is allowed to flow without control, it becomes simply observed by our self awareness and we detach from the thoughts..."

--- Not physically observed but observed by our self awareness... Can't figure that one out.

Ah, I see. Yes it can be difficult to put these things in words, as there are many concepts to try and get your head around if you're trying to intellectualize how everything fits together. I appreciate it's tricky... I'm still learning new things even after all these years, and honing my intellectual understanding of it all.

When I say "physically observed" I'm referring to becoming attached to thinking about the mantra. Awareness of the mantra (or observed by our self awareness) is not the same as becoming attached to the mantra. The observation through awareness is simply being aware of the mantra without consciously thinking about it, or becoming attached to thoughts about it. As Polly says, the thoughts are not us, we are the observer of these thoughts and of everything else we perceive. The "observer" is a tricky concept to get your head around because you try and look for the observer but you cannot see it, you can only Be it. One way that helps is to consider... if you are observing a thought arising within you, then what is doing the observing? That is the observer... the True Self (or whatever other name you want to give it); that is the unattached awareness.

On one of the movies I saw on YouTube, in which breathing meditation was taught, they said explicitly: don't chant any mantra, because mantra chanting is the activity of the mind and you need to quiet your mind. The breathing technique is the starting point of Vipassana, which is the meditation style taught by Buddha.

Chanting a mantra is different from allowing a mantra to simply flow. Chanting it does require a mental activity, and the mind takes control of it to make it take on a regular pattern or volume etc. So yes, it's correct that chanting a mantra is not ideal, though if one is practicing such an objective meditation then that's fine; I just wouldn't expect to reach a truly deep state of meditation using that method.
As I believe I said earlier, breathing meditation is a good meditation if it's taught properly, and that is that you should be aware of the breath and let it breath naturally, which I imagine is what they will teach in Vipassana (as they are an established meditation style, so are likely to have experienced teachers). Again it comes down to letting oneself become aware of the breath or mantra, rather than controlling it. The only real difference being that the breath is tangible and the mantra intangible. Does that help to clarify?

It seems to me, one conclusion can be drawn out of this discussion: There is a fundamental contradiction between the two – mantra unfocused meditation and Vipassana focused meditation, and if you try to combine the two by regulating the mantra with the breathing rhythm, you compromise both of them.

Indeed, if you try and use a mantra and attempt to do that in tandem with the breath, then the mantra will take on the rythm of the breath and the mind will likely try and regulate the breath to make it fit with the flow of the mantra, so the could certainly interfere with each other.
On the other hand, it's possible that one could simply become aware of the mantra and the breath at the same time, though typically this is when one reaches a state of meditative awareness where they become aware of all things, and at that point the breath is not seen as seperate from the mantra, or from anything else, as it is the mind that creates the dualistic perception of one thing over another; yet in the state of complete awareness all does become One, not that we even perceive that Oneness, we simply become it (again it's hard to put in words, it's just something that you know as it happens), as soon as there is any attempt to perceive the Oneness, this is the mind at work and it creates duality, trying to look at Oneness from 'outside'; creating a "Me and the Oneness" and when that happens we can easily become attached to the mind and lose that deep state we were in. It happens easily, but with continued practice the mind is 'quietened' and doesn't so easily grasp as seeking to perceive such things; thus doesn't drag us out of the state so readily.



Hugs

Giles

[DanielKotzer]

Thank you, for your time and effort to clarify things on the intellectual level. I did breathing meditation for a while, and it took me to places I was never before. Recently I started to practice mantra meditation. I tend to regulate the mantra with the rhythm of my breath, as it was my primary technique of meditation and I'm used to it, but I insist on getting a taste of mantra meditation, especially after Giles and many others recommended it, so I understand I need to let the mantra flow independently. I can't say I feel the same as I felt with the breathing meditation, but I will give this method of meditation a fair trial.

With every meditation, the first stage is the stage where every thought you suppressed in the past, comes pouring out of your unconscious like pus from a wound, as you create a passage to your unconscious, but this is part of the healing process, so I expect the good sensation to follow afterwards, just as it was with the Vipassana breathing style meditation I practiced before.

[HemantM]

The difference is in the practice of the two kinds of meditation while the outcome is the same in many ways. TM allows your mind to focus on one matra, a sandscrit word given to you by your teacher. With Vipassana, you focus on your breath (in the beginning) and work to train your mind on staying where you place your attention.