Art of meditation

Panthau · November 5th, 2009, 18:45

Hi there,

A few days ago i visited a guy, who calls himself "Geistheiler" (maybe its Ghosthealer in english, not sure). Ive been reading and watching a bit about such, but he had an completly different approach. He told me, that the "information flow" (what we experience) from the "greater self" (however you may call it) gets stuck for most people on the half way, because we decide to do some things and do some things not (because of religion and the things that society learns us). So his approach is, to just watch everything thats coming up and feel your body. Like Edwin and others suggest, to feel any feeling but detach from it and just watch it. Thats because our "greater self" wants us to experience certain things, and if we allow the experience to "flow" we avoid the duality of things.

Maybe i should say that this guy worked with great people like Serge King and others.

I like that point, as it makes sense. My problem with that is, what for did our "greater self" create consciousness and "free will", if in the end we have to give ourself up and experience what the greater one wants us to experience. That feels to me like if we´re telecontroled dolls.

Any ideas?

Edit: Uhm, maybe the topic title doesnt exactly fit the content. Its because i thought its another approach to meditation as most people just "try" to be quiet, but that seems completly pointless.

Edwin · November 6th, 2009, 00:23

I think "spirit healer" is more fitting, geist in German is not only ghost but also spirit.

I agree mostly with what he sais ( just don't understand what could be wrong with his own name ), but I am not that sure about his interpretation of "greater self" vs "ego" because that is what this means, "deciding" to "do" or "not do" things.

That we think that we have control over what we do or don't do is the actual cause of suffering. Just like you can't stop a thought from coming up, it is also impossible to stop yourself from acting.
Sure, sometimes you think that you acted stupid. But thinking that is nothing more than a re-action to something that has allready occurred.
Have you ever thought " now why did I do that ?"
Instant proof that there is nothing you can do to stop you from acting. You are the observer of all that happens, including what "you" are doing.

If you accept what happens, what is being done, by your body or the world around it, without regret about what happened in the past, and without anticipation of what might happen, fully accepting what is happening Now...
That is when you stop feeling terrible. For ever.
Sure, emotions can come by that you would describe as "terrible" now.
I still get scared, I still get angry. I still feel.
But it is only for as long as I am feeling it. No need to do anything with it, just witness it.

Giving yourself up as geistheiler says, means realising that the story you made up to describe yourself is a fraud.
There is no "I", there is no "me".

This is the only way to stop suffering, because when there is nobody there, who suffers ? If there is nobody there "running the show" what more can you be than the observer of what occurs ? Have you ever done anything before ?
How can ego get in the way of True Self when True Self acts first, and ego reacts to that ? Thinking that you are a seperate person fighting against the rest of the world has brought you nothing but trouble.

Accepting that you have never done anything wrong, never done anything right, that everything you have done wasn't done by a seperate you but by the You that is also Me and everybody else, anything else...

But please, don't believe what I said, bring this to Geistheiler, and ask him how you can see this within yourself. Oh, and if Geistheiler asks you money, find an Advaita teacher in your country, and ask him, most Advaita teachers don't want money.

Panthau · November 6th, 2009, 09:26

Thanks for your opinion Edwin!

Yes, spirit-healer does fit better :-)

I can follow you, and it does make sense. It just feels like dying before it would be physically necessary. To give myself up was my idea, not from Geistheiler, because thats how it feels. But as you mentioned, the "i" is a story... its not real... its just hard to accept that it is that way. Maybe its easier to give up our idea of "i", when we experience what we really are.

Still i dont understand why theres consciousness and "free will". The only point would be, to test us if we find the way out... like a rat in the labyrinth.

Yes, Geistheiler takes money hehe... thanks for the hint with the Advaita teachers :-)

Edit: Seems theres no Advaita teacher that doesnt take money (i wouldnt care about overhead costs, but they all take a lot more). So if you know or find someone around vienna, please let me know :-)

billyboy2674 · November 6th, 2009, 13:08

Or it could be that we're just running around in circles searching for the unfindable.
Because it simply doesn't exist.
This would make people like Tolle great philosophers,but nothing more.
If your intent is to find an "inner body' you may just percieve that you have found it...then again it may just be a delusion.
A tingling or a feeling of joy can be a mind-construct just like everything else.
I am a great admirer of Tolle,but as of yet I've to experience anything within me I can label divine,and I do feel that just maybe letting go of mind identification brings peace,but only by default.
Sorry for being a skeptic but with all the interest$ out there,you just never know.

GilesC · November 6th, 2009, 15:18

Originally Posted by Panthau

My problem with that is, what for did our "greater self" create consciousness and "free will", if in the end we have to give ourself up and experience what the greater one wants us to experience. That feels to me like if we´re telecontroled dolls.

Any ideas?

What and when do we "have to give ourself up"?
What is "the greater one"? The way you talk about it implies duality i.e. "the greater one" and "us". If we are all one, then we are the greater one you talk about. There is no giving ourselves up, simply recognising our true Self for what it is. The only control that goes on is through our true Self becoming attached to the mind, emotions and memory and distracting us from the present moment.

Edit: Uhm, maybe the topic title doesnt exactly fit the content. Its because i thought its another approach to meditation as most people just "try" to be quiet, but that seems completly pointless.

There's nothing wrong or pointless with being quiet (falling still) as this brings us to the present, and this is where we can truly be aware of the truth.

However, there's also nothing wrong with using different tools and approaches. I too do different practices such as Reiki and other relaxation techniques.

Hugs

Giles

Edwin · November 6th, 2009, 16:59

Originally Posted by Panthau

Edit: Seems theres no Advaita teacher that doesnt take money (i wouldnt care about overhead costs, but they all take a lot more). So if you know or find someone around vienna, please let me know :-)

The word you are looking for is "Satsang".

Wikipedia sais this about "Satsang":

Satsang (Sanskrit sat = true, sanga = company) describes in Indian philosophy (1) the company of the "highest truth," (2) the company of a guru, or (3) company with an assembly of persons who listen to, talk about, and assimilate the truth.[1] This typically involves listening to or reading scriptures, reflecting on, discussing and assimilating their meaning, meditating on the source of these words, and bringing their meaning into one’s daily life. Contemporary satsang teachers in the West - frequently coming from the Advaita Vedanta tradition - sometimes mix traditional Eastern knowledge with methods of modern psychology.

Oftan Satsangs are offered for a minimal price, like 10 euro or 15 euro entrance fee, and you sit with a number of people, and you can listen to the Advaita teacher, or ask questions, depending on the teacher's preference.

A lot of Advaita teachers say that it takes about 10 to 15 visits to the same or different teachers to "get it".

billyboy2674 · November 6th, 2009, 17:34

A lot of Advaita teachers say that it takes about 10 to 15 visits to the same or different teachers to "get it".

Oh and they do get it-an empty pocket.

Panthau · November 6th, 2009, 19:46

Originally Posted by billyboy2674

Or it could be that we're just running around in circles searching for the unfindable.
Because it simply doesn't exist.
This would make people like Tolle great philosophers,but nothing more.
.

I think its great to be good at philosophics... and if theres not more to it, then its just another way where the end of it shows us again alterntive paths. I dont mind going it, i just want to choose the right one for me, for this particular moment.

Originally Posted by GilesC

What and when do we "have to give ourself up"?
What is "the greater one"? The way you talk about it implies duality i.e. "the greater one" and "us". If we are all one, then we are the greater one you talk about. There is no giving ourselves up, simply recognising our true Self for what it is. The only control that goes on is through our true Self becoming attached to the mind, emotions and memory and distracting us from the present moment.

There's nothing wrong or pointless with being quiet (falling still) as this brings us to the present, and this is where we can truly be aware of the truth.

However, there's also nothing wrong with using different tools and approaches. I too do different practices such as Reiki and other relaxation techniques.

Hugs

Giles

Yes, thank you. I have only one single experience regarding my "real" me, and im still confused and unsure about beeing my own higher self and just not aware of it. But it does make sense and i feel that it is so.
I just find it really hard to see the meaning of it. If we go this way, we give up our personality, our feelings - everything that makes us human. Ok, theres no suffering on this path, at least not as human do suffer, but why do we own an ego and a mind and why are we here? Does it make sense to buy a car, to find out it consumes gas, step out of it and walk?

Thanks Edwin! Now i have the right word

Edwin · November 7th, 2009, 01:55

Originally Posted by Panthau

If we go this way, we give up our personality, our feelings - everything that makes us human.

haha that's a classic one !

About 2 weeks ago realisation became complete with me ( strange sentence to say, because that is impossible... There is no me anymore due to realisation... so who is realised... this is the seeming duality that Giles is talking about ) but for sake of conversation we'll leave it at this.

Has anything changed in my answers ? Did I become less human ? Why hasn't my wife noticed anything ? Surely if I became numb and feelingless, I must have become less human like you said...

Am I less human now ? Do my answers appear less human ?

That's why I called this a classic one. I didn't change in any way other than that I don't believe in a seperate me anymore. And due to that, all cramps and fears that used to rule my life disappeared alongside my so called personality.

A Dutch Advaita teacher once said that the realised or enlightened ones are "painfully human". Meaning that they act like any other person, because they haven't changed. And by being in the moment, an enlightened one will answer fitting to the moment, and that might not be fitting with someone's ego.

I will repeat what I tried to explain before:
Ego is thought's RE-action to the action that has allready taken place.
IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN that half a second before the part of the brain that thinks words thinks "I am going to grab my glass of lemonade" the part of the brain that steers your arm in order to grab hold of the glass of lemonade becomes active.

So, if you lose thought, what part of being human or feelings are you giving up ?

Panthau · November 7th, 2009, 09:56

Ok i see, thanks for that. So our creator (ourself) has created those tools for the little consciousness it is putting in to experience those tools. This little consciousness gets easily confused with it, and identifys itself with the tools, which means he seperates from the bigger consciousness and this is the beginning of suffering.

I guess i have to experience the "bigger consciousness" to not only understand it, but experience it. But it does make sense, nevertheless.