Society without violence, could it be a reality?

[Mr Monkey]

Hello,

I thought I'd post something that has been rattling around my head for a while; on the one hand (my idealistic one) I think that violence is something a truely civilised society can exist without but on the other hand (my realistic one) I have questions such as:

• What if somebody gives me a wack? (if I don’t react it could turn into ‘the punch that just keeps on giving’ )
• How do you (or a country) enforce boundaries?
• How do you (or a country) ensure peoples safety?
• How does a country enforce law?
• etc

Having said that, I am aware that people Ghandi/Martin Luther King managed to effect huge change through non-violent means, I am aware that people (ie Tibetan monks) have been able to forgive huge injustices against them (without reaction) and also that in many situations people who are deeply affected but instead of looking for retribution act with humility, forgiveness and courage turn into beacons of hope/compassion that can act as a conduit and catalyst for positive change.

But how do you protect yourself and others from people wishing to attack unless you accept some level of violence is acceptable? The only other ways (I can see) is to accept the physical assault or eliminate there wish/need to attack (try to address there needs, if they're reasonable)

Could violence only be eliminted by a change within the Worlds mindset (eg Eckhart Tolle comments)? If so what to do in the mean time?

Also, something else to throw into the mix, one persons terrorist is another persons freedom fighter – so ‘good’ and ‘evil’ are purely perspective not a given . I am aware that good/bad is dualistic, but I’m just sticking with what I know for time being .

Any thoughts welcome

[olmate]

I too have been pondering similar questions although not within the context of physical violence.

This is still very much work in progress but threads that have emerged so far include ...

1. I seem to run a core or main storey. That storey seems to guide much of my thinking, actions and reactions.

2. There exists other stories in tandum that seem to operate at varying degrees of opposition. If I decide to run with one storey or another it always puts me on a collision course. Stress rises, emotions turn to stormy seas, and so a spiral dive starts and gets tighter the longer it goes.

3. To break this two dimensional thinking - a bit like two trains running on the same track - it seems that a new third position needs to evolve. But having said this it cannot be a compromise per se as that usually implies an unsatisfactory position from either story context.

4. Love seems to be the context and reference point in seeking to create a new third position apart from the single train line. It isn't part of the line but a completely new evolved position. It involves new thinking, new conversations, new contexts. it doesn't operate within the realm of right and wrong.

So that conceptually sounds logical (to me anyways), but the application of theory into practice is still very much work in progress.

What is clear is that life is messy and painful and lots of other things. But that is OK. So it doesn't seem to be about "fixing" anything. It seems to be more about evolving and creating. To do this though it seems that a space has to be cleared for the seed to grow. I have started looking at nature for more inspiration on this line of thinking and being.

That is about where I am at. As I say, still very much work in progress.

Olmate

[Karmoh]

Hi Paul,

Our world is a violent place, from the hedgerow to the outer reaches of the known universe, nature itself is cruel and violent. But the cruelty is only a concept that we invented to explain why it happens.

Enforcing boundaries creates a mind-set of mine and yours (separation).

As long as separate borders exists there will be quarrelling.These boundaries are all around us...

• The voice in your head
• Small children fighting over a toy
• Neighbours over a fence
• Young men fighting over pride
• Football hooligans fighting over misguided allegiance
• Governments creating embargoes
• Super powers making and breaking alliances

The list is endless....

As long as we believe that there is something better, stronger and more profitable, I believe these separations will always divide man. These thoughts and actions have created systems that have divided us. You have one method and they have another method, these methods are always quarrelling.

There will never be peace on earth....whether man is here or not. The best advice is to make your own mind as peaceful and harmonious as possible, then let that love and compassion shine through. Not as rhetoric but by just being...

You may preach non-violence for the rest of your life and all the time be sowing the seeds of violence.
– J. Krishnamurti

Peace

[Hazelkay]

I just read Dipa Ma by Amy Schmidt - the life of a Buddhist master.
I recommend it as an inspiring read and a lesson to us all about carrying non-violence in our hearts.

I feel the way we can contribute a loving energy, which is the only antidote, is to recognise each violent thought within ourselves. This is not necessarily any wish to harm another, but also any blame, grievance, non-forgiveness, unthinking criticism, unkind gossip, judgements.......

it is probably idealistic - but there could be a tipping point when enough people become aware enough to carry non-violent hearts to affect larger and larger communities around them.

peace and joy to all:

[Boris Badenov]

You can only do violence on that which you identify as different than yourself. I was sued by a bank when I lost my job while going through chemotherapy. I viewed that as an act of war and it changed my whole world view.

[Mr Monkey]

Thanks for the replies , I’ve enjoyed pondering the posts.

Hi Olmate,

I like the analogy of the trains and needing a totally a different position; I can see how that fits together. There was something in what you say that doesn’t come across clearly to me.

Originally Posted by olmate

What is clear is that life is messy and painful and lots of other things. But that is OK. So it doesn't seem to be about "fixing" anything. It seems to be more about evolving and creating. To do this though it seems that a space has to be cleared for the seed to grow. I have started looking at nature for more inspiration on this line of thinking and being.

Are you suggesting that you’d look to nature for inspiration of just getting on and not dwelling/worrying about aggression etc?


Hi Karmoh,

Originally Posted by Karmoh

There will never be peace on earth....whether man is here or not. The best advice is to make your own mind as peaceful and harmonious as possible, then let that love and compassion shine through. Not as rhetoric but by just being...

I take your point, life isn’t always harmonious and that’s true of the very nature of life, survival . But… I’m not sure what to take from your comments I've quoted as it seems point out on the one hand that life can never be fully peaceful (which I’ve taken as suggesting that there will always be some degree of violence), but one the other suggests the solution is finding internal peace, which for a large part makes sense.

This leaves a slight nagging in my mind, what if someone was threatening you (or worse your family) with violence, you can be internally peaceful as you want, but you’ll need to act in a violent way to protect yourself or them. Having said that, I couldn’t imagine Eckhart Tolle, Mooji or other people who I have listened to or watched acting in an aggressive manner at all .


Hi Hazlekay,

Originally Posted by HazleKay

it is probably idealistic - but there could be a tipping point when enough people become aware enough to carry non-violent hearts to affect larger and larger communities around them.

In my humble opinion there is nothing wrong with being idealistic and incidentally, I have the same hopes about that tipping point .

Hi Boris,

Originally Posted by Boris B

I viewed that as an act of war and it changed my whole world view.

I'm curious as to why and how this changed your worldview, if you have a couple of minutes..

Cheers all

[Karmoh]

Originally Posted by Mr Monkey

Thanks for the replies , I’ve enjoyed pondering the posts.

Hi Karmoh,
I take your point, life isn’t always harmonious and that’s true of the very nature of life, survival . But… I’m not sure what to take from your comments I've quoted as it seems point out on the one hand that life can never be fully peaceful (which I’ve taken as suggesting that there will always be some degree of violence), but one the other suggests the solution is finding internal peace, which for a large part makes sense.

This leaves a slight nagging in my mind, what if someone was threatening you (or worse your family) with violence, you can be internally peaceful as you want, but you’ll need to act in a violent way to protect yourself or them. Having said that, I couldn’t imagine Eckhart Tolle, Mooji or other people who I have listened to or watched acting in an aggressive manner at all .

Hello Paul,

Nature is pure and that purity could be known as unconditional love. By understanding the nature of unconditional love then violence, cruelty, peace and harmony are but the same, just different degrees. If you are at peace with yourself then forgiveness is not a burden. If violence for family or self-preservation is required then so be it, you don’t justify it or glorify it. You do the minimum you have to do, then move on by first forgiving yourself, then forgive the perpetrator


Let’s go back 30 odd TV years and to Kung Fu. Chang Caine, the Shaolin priest was perfectly at peace with the world and did what he had to do. He was trained to protect, but also to be wise and harmonious with his surroundings. TV fiction I know but a good old fashion example

Or Kenny Rodgers Coward of the County Now I'm getting worried........

Peace

[Boris Badenov]

Originally Posted by Mr Monkey

Thanks for the replies , I’ve enjoyed pondering the posts.

Hi Boris,

I'm curious as to why and how this changed your worldview, if you have a couple of minutes..

Cheers all

This changed my world view in the sense that I lost faith in humanity. At the time that I received a cancer diagnosis and was undergoing chemotherapy, I was studying Raja Yoga and doing a lot of inner service work and much physical volunteer work during my days off. For example, I was spending entire days volunteering with a wildlife rehabilitator rescuing wild animals. Anyway, during the chemo treatment I missed three weeks of work in total. During this time, the company's insurance company hounded me constantly to get back to work. They didn't care that I had a life-threatening condition. I was a cog in a big machine to be discarded when no longer needed. Well, a few months later the company got rid of me. Who's going to hire someone that's going through chemotherapy? How could anybody do that to another human being? That was the low point of my life. I thought that I saw how miserable humanity was at that point. But then it got worse. I wasn't able to make some credit card payments and the bank sued me. I tried to explain to them that I had cancer and was going through chemo and lost my job. They didn't care, they just wanted their money. It was at that point that I really started to see through the whole charade that we call our world. I started to really see how false everything was, that everything is built upon a house of cards and it's just waiting for the west winds to blow it all down. I saw how really shallow most people are, how my government and financial institutions and the marketing ploys are just designed to set you up like a lamb ready to be fleeced. There's no compassion or empathy, I was already down and they were ready at a moment's notice to kick my face in the dirt.
Having said all that, I'm much wiser now. Banks don't own me anymore. I don't have any credit. I understand now why my grandparents never trusted banks, it's gone full circle. I'm still doing a lot of service work but I'd sooner trust an injured raptor with its sharp beak and claws than a smiling banker in a suit. A raptor commits violence to eat, a banker or lawyer sues you for monetary gain. A figment of his imagination. You suffer to stroke his ego.
The 'gift' that came out of this experience is a greater ability to see the essential essence of a person or situation. I am better able to see through all the b.s. that people throw at you. I've learned to strip my daily activities down to the bare essentials to make time for the things that are important, like meditation. There's always time for meditation. You just need to eliminate the non-essentials. And there are always a lot of non-essentials in your day, especially if you get your values from pop culture.

[olmate]

Hi Paul,

The look towards nature for insight is within the context of renewal. Nature is very adapt at dealing with adversity and complexity in an amazingly simple way.

When a storm blows in and knocks everything down or an earth quake bounces in and throws everything to and fro, it has an amazing ability to create something new and fresh and vital. The whole process of being knocked down or thrown assunder is painful and messy. But as sure as the sun comes up in the morning, it heals and renews.

Thinking about my own storms and earth quakes (so to speak), instead of fighting them physically and psychologically, I am looking to nature to see how it deals with that energy flow and creates a new and fresh being.

As we are not separate from anything or each other - it seems to me to be the logical place to look with wide open eyes to try to genuinely see and learn.

This is difficult to explain - but as I sit down at the waters edge and notice at one level how a tiny wave can seem catestrophic to to a little crab - yet it picks itself up and gets on with its life. Am I just a little crab in the overall scheme of things? Are my storms and quakes really just a way of evolving and renewing? Hmmm...

So relating back to the idea of violence... maybe they are just little storms.

I hope that makes sense....

Olmate

[Mr Monkey]

Hello All

Originally Posted by Karmoh

If violence for family or self-preservation is required then so be it, you don’t justify it or glorify it. You do the minimum you have to do, then move on by first forgiving yourself, then forgive the perpetrator

Let’s go back 30 odd TV years and to Kung Fu. Chang Caine, the Shaolin priest was perfectly at peace with the world and did what he had to do. He was trained to protect, but also to be wise and harmonious with his surroundings. TV fiction I know but a good old fashion example

Thanks Karmoh, I get you 100% now – nothing wrong with a bit of 80’s martial arts TV programs (or pink flying clouds for that matter…).

Originally Posted by Olmate

When a storm blows in and knocks everything down or an earth quake bounces in and throws everything to and fro, it has an amazing ability to create something new and fresh and vital. The whole process of being knocked down or thrown assunder is painful and messy. But as sure as the sun comes up in the morning, it heals and renews.
….
Are my storms and quakes really just a way of evolving and renewing?

Thanks olmate, am with you too now, very nicely put.

Originally Posted by Boris B

The 'gift' that came out of this experience is a greater ability to see the essential essence of a person or situation. I am better able to see through all the b.s. that people throw at you. I've learned to strip my daily activities down to the bare essentials to make time for the things that are important, like meditation. There's always time for meditation. You just need to eliminate the non-essentials. And there are always a lot of non-essentials in your day, especially if you get your values from pop culture.

Thanks for sharing that Boris. You have obviously seen some tough times but it seems that through the suffering you have gain insight and greater depth of being, similar I think to what olmate is saying – renewal through trauma.

Interesting comments and food for thought for me, I enjoyed reading them.