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Old March 16th, 2012, 11:06   #1 (permalink)
samsaraspath (Offline)
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Unhappy A question about belief

I read a quote on a site favorable to the idea of LoA - can't remember which site, sorry - that said (paraphrased):

A belief is just a thought you keep practicing.

Am I being too literal when I see this as utter foolishness? I believe trees grow from the ground, taking in water and nutrients from the soil, and using sunlight to convert those things into the energy it needs to grow. This is a fact, not something I dreamed into existance.

What am I getting wrong? This whole idea of: the woman was rapped because she caused it to happen is really bothering me; not for her sake - I'm no altruistic saint by any stretch - but for the implications it has for the things that have occured in my life.

It is a similar problem to the one I have with the idea that I keep coming across that "the past is not real, so replace it with what you want."

The past is real. It did happen. Replacing it with a fiction is delusional and dangerous, is it not? If a family member or friend abused several children in the past, would it not be foolish to disregard that in a mis-guided attempt to remodel your past and so allow that individual to watch your own children?

Several people have tried to explain this to me, and my lack of ability to internalise it is really starting to depress me. I always considered myself above average in intelligence, but this stuff seems to be beyond me.

Thoughts becoming things? No they don't. Otherwise pigs would fly, my eye color would change at will, and a rainbow-excreting-unicorn would take up residence in my front yard.

What am I getting wrong?
 
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Old March 16th, 2012, 14:07   #2 (permalink)
GilesC (Offline)
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Originally Posted by samsaraspath View Post
I read a quote on a site favorable to the idea of LoA - can't remember which site, sorry - that said (paraphrased):

A belief is just a thought you keep practicing.

Am I being too literal when I see this as utter foolishness? I believe trees grow from the ground, taking in water and nutrients from the soil, and using sunlight to convert those things into the energy it needs to grow. This is a fact, not something I dreamed into existance.
Perhaps you're not being literal enough. Re the trees, you don't "believe" it, you "know" it.

A "belief" is something that you don't yet "know" but have reasoned that it "could" be the case, and therefore you can follow that belief until you find knowledge (come to "know") that it is either true or false. Just as a scientist believes in particular theories that may have mathematical proof, but they strive to create experiments that can prove it and turn that belief into knowledge.

So the saying "A belief is just a thought you keep practicing" is correct. If you didn't believe in something you wouldn't take action to seek the proof and turn it into knowledge, thus that belief keeps you taking action or "practicing" as you put it.

What am I getting wrong? This whole idea of: the woman was rapped because she caused it to happen is really bothering me; not for her sake - I'm no altruistic saint by any stretch - but for the implications it has for the things that have occured in my life.
It's not saying that a person consciously chose or wanted bad things to happen to them, but that a person can attract certain actions upon themselves. For example a person walking down an alleyway, can put their thoughts on what bad things might occur because of it being a quiet alleyway and what they've heard from other people, and create fear in themselves, and the 'energy' of this fear can be felt by others who may act upon it, or alternatively, the person can be completely aware of what is right in front of them and remain aware without fear (and thus walk with confidence) and this will not attract those who are attaching to fear.
It may sound a little far fetched, but it works, however it does help if you believe it, because lacking belief will mean that the 'fear' can still exhibit itself.

It is a similar problem to the one I have with the idea that I keep coming across that "the past is not real, so replace it with what you want."
Is the past real? If so can you show me how I can get to the past?
All I know is that I have memories that exist in the present moment that were created by past events, but those past events are no longer here in this present moment, and the memories will have no doubt been influenced and 'corrupted' over time. The only thing that is real is what is here right Now, so act on what is happening right now and not re-act to what you believe is happening based on corrupted past memories.

The past is real. It did happen.
The past was real. It did happen when it was the Now, but it doesn't exist any more except as a concept in the mind created by your memories.

Replacing it with a fiction is delusional and dangerous, is it not?
Not sure I'd go so far as to say it's dangerous, but I also would say that you shouldn't replace it with things that aren't real, such as ideas about the future. That doesn't mean you can't plan things to meet the needs of this moment, but that you shouldn't believe the future is going to be exactly what you think based on what has gone in the past. Just experience what is here right Now and act to the best of your ability on what is here right now.

If a family member or friend abused several children in the past, would it not be foolish to disregard that in a mis-guided attempt to remodel your past and so allow that individual to watch your own children?
Nobody is saying that you would disregard knowledge of something, just as you wouldn't choose to ignore how to walk which is something you learned years ago. It's not about letting go of common sense, rather you wouldn't let fear of that influence what you are doing right now, just as some people would get all worked up and demand they go nowhere near their children etc. even though they are there to protect them. What it comes down to is how you act yourself, though we cannot take responsibility for how others act and thus we shouldn't let others actions distract us from what we are doing in the present moment. If you have knowledge that this person has abused children in the past, and you have no knowledge to say that they wouldn't do the same to your own, of course you would not leave them to look after your children, but not acting out of fear, just out of knowledge.

Several people have tried to explain this to me, and my lack of ability to internalise it is really starting to depress me. I always considered myself above average in intelligence, but this stuff seems to be beyond me.
There's no need for it to depress you. People spend years and years philosophizing about these things, and some people 'get it' more quickly than others. There's nothing wrong with taking time to get an understanding of it. And remember, it's not just about intellectualising it, it's about putting it into practice and seeing the results from yourself. That's when the information you're learning becomes knowledge, and that's when you know what is truth and what is not truth.

Thoughts becoming things? No they don't. Otherwise pigs would fly, my eye color would change at will, and a rainbow-excreting-unicorn would take up residence in my front yard.

What am I getting wrong?
Ok, perhaps rephrase that to "thoughts, within reason, become things". If you want to use the law of attraction, you can use positive affirmations, but the key points to positive affirmations is that they must be reasonable.

Perhaps though if enough people focused on pigs being able to fly, this would have some subtle influence on the universe and they may start to genetically change and it happen... though it may take some generations of pigs to find that out and a constant belief by those aiming to achieve it.

Hugs

Giles
 
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Old March 17th, 2012, 04:49   #3 (permalink)
Boris Badenov (Offline)
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"Thoughts becoming things? No they don't. Otherwise pigs would fly, my eye color would change at will, and a rainbow-excreting-unicorn would take up residence in my front yard.
What am I getting wrong?"

You and everything you've ever done, said, bought and discarded, every chair you've ever sat on, these all started out as thoughts. The point people miss in all of this is that YOU have to put forth the effort to manifest the thought. The Universe doesn't operate a bank and so whatever it is that you think that you want and desire, it is up to you and you alone to put forth the effort to make it happen. Nature isn't frivolous and doesn't expend energy on flying pigs. Nature conserves energy and will manifest those things that are needed when they are needed.
 
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Old March 19th, 2012, 17:37   #4 (permalink)
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No chair I've sat in started out at as a thought by me. The guy who made it could make that claim, I guess. He had the idea, then got the wood, then made the chair.

Then I came along and sat in it. But my thinking did not manifest the chair.

If that is what is meant when people talk about LoA - that first you imagine what the chair will look like, then you go buy the wood, then you make the chair...

What a waste of time this has been. That's how everything starts. I was thinking/hoping there was something "more" to LoA.

Day two awake, 6:35am, and I've got to try to find a job starting in an hour... bah... sorry if this comes across as dismissive or rude.
 
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Old March 19th, 2012, 18:22   #5 (permalink)
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Take your example of looking for a job. To manifest this thought I need to think of what I'd like to do, then set my intention to find that job, desire to have that job, visualize me working at that job, then tell people I'd like to have that job, apply for that job and eventually I'll be working at that job. It's only at Hogwarts and Wall Street that things are manifested out of thin air. You have a real need to find a job right now, that creates a lot of tension. A tension held with poise and purpose is a reservoir of energy that I can use to manifest things in my life. As I circulate my breath by breathing in and breathing out, so too, do I manifest things by setting up a circulation in my life. Nature works on cycles of circulation. I suspect that what you're looking for are the deeper meanings of existence. I was in that place many years ago and studied mysticism for a long time. The answers will come to you if you persist. Discouragement is not your friend.
 
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Old March 20th, 2012, 01:06   #6 (permalink)
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Discouragement may not be my friend, but the prick has been a constant companion my entire life. Mostly, at any rate. He takes off somewhere once in a while, but always ends up back at my place, sleeping rent-free on my couch.

*sigh

So.... as you describe it, LoA is just life - all that is being advocated is a change of attitude. Using phrases like "manifest" and "thoughts become things" is a marketing gimmick to draw in the gullible to something that really changes nothing - except how one "takes" things.

The glass is not half full. The glass is not half empty. It is used, and needs to be cleaned.

Sure, one can have a positive attitude while the lackeys of a fascist dictator saw off your legs with a rusty tin lid - but what would that really matter in the history of the universe? Not a damn thing. Nor will it keep your legs intact.

My chances at getting a job, if the job search is conducted in the manner you describe, would improve if my outward countenance currently displayed resignation or defeat or anger. This is a fact. But it doesn't. I am a master at appearing to always be in a good mood, and kind and warm and inclusive.

Only here online, and internally, am I so down on the world and myself - as I am already fully aware that how others percieve me influences how they interact with me. But it is THEIR impression that is important in that interaction, not mine.

I'm trying to find some inner peace, not manifest the pot-o'-gold away from the end of the rainbow and into my living-room. And a life-time of faking it 'til I make it has produced no results.

I *DO* already try to find the good in people and events.

There very, very rarely are any I can find.

I *DO* already try to find things to be happy and/or greatful about.

Greatful in my current circumstances? No more than I would be as a millionaire, that's what I'm trying to fix.

I *DO* already try to maintain a positive attitude in all things - at least outwardly - as I'm aware of the importance of those things - again, vis-a-vis the way *OTHERS* percieve you.

Positive attitude? Being positive while riding a cattle-car into Auschwitz-Birkenau? Can't figure out how that is possible. Or why one should/would. Either way, it's still going to suck, so how do you keep a (real) smile on your face?

And it just gets harder and harder. People are comfort-seeking, blind, idiots who don't care about anything except their own percieved immediate needs - despite what's said here. Our lifestyles - even those of you here - are killing the planet. Period. Using paper instead of plastic only makes you feel better, it solves or helps to solve LESS than nothing - as your delusion that it does help only hastens the end. Capitalism is a pyramid scheme with banks and big-buisness sitting at the apex. Human life - or the universe, cosmic unconcious conciousness, God, or whatever - is not divine. The universe and life on earth is just a collection of chemicals bouncing off one-another and our own personal conciousness is a fluke.

I had hoped to find some sort of awareness of this divinity everyone speaks of. Some proof that I am wrong about there being *more* to existance than there is on the outside.

All my searching has done is solidify my beliefe that there isn't... which depresses me more, which.....

If there is a God - some grand driver at the helm, even if it is just "us" - then when I get to Heaven (if) I'm going to disembowl someone.

I don't want to believe those things. But they are self-apparent facts, just like water freezes when it gets below zero, the sun rises in the east, and rain falls down, not up.

Facts.

I guess, in the end what I'm saying is that I'm not disgusted with living.

I'm disgusted with life.

And that's what I can't figure out how to un-"manifest."
 
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Old March 20th, 2012, 02:44   #7 (permalink)
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Its difficult sometimes. Sometimes it seems impossible. Other times things just seems to flow. Meaning (including that prick you refer to) blow in apparently at a whim. There is always an abundance of meaning that can hook onto anything - unless we just stop and look. I mean really look - suspend all judgments and just see what is.

I find communing with nature centers - but the "prick" is always standing nearby happy to add a viewpoint at any moment.

For instance, I sit by the water every morning. I watch fish jump out of the water near where i sit. I just look and see. The meaning blows in like the wind... everything from wow, that is so beautiful at one end of the spectrum to wow, those poor little guys are being eaten by bigger fish!!! Or and i can sit and see, be present, be still and just notice.

With practice as the roots go deep into the stillness your perspective changes. Your level of connection deepens. Your understanding of the mystery of the web of life expands.

The prick will always be there. His relationship with you is up to you. It really is.

Olmate
 
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Old March 20th, 2012, 02:49   #8 (permalink)
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Hi Samsaraspath,

Welcome to the community - an interesting thread youíve started. Personally Iím not someone who subscribes/practices LOA but itís interesting to see some of the points youíve raised discussed.

I just wanted to draw something to your attention within your post, unrelated to LOA as I found it quite interesting and thought you may find it useful to reflect on.

You wrote:
Originally Posted by samsaraspath
I *DO* already try to find the good in people and events.
I *DO* already try to find things to be happy and/or greatful about.
I *DO* already try to maintain a positive attitude in all things - at least outwardly
Then I read:
Originally Posted by samsaraspath
And it just gets harder and harder. People are comfort-seeking, blind, idiots who don't care about anything except their own percieved immediate needs - despite what's said here. Our lifestyles - even those of you here - are killing the planet. Period. Using paper instead of plastic only makes you feel better, it solves or helps to solve LESS than nothing - as your delusion that it does help only hastens the end. Capitalism is a pyramid scheme with banks and big-buisness sitting at the apex. Human life - or the universe, cosmic unconcious conciousness, God, or whatever - is not divine. The universe and life on earth is just a collection of chemicals bouncing off one-another and our own personal conciousness is a fluke.
It struck me that if thatís your general outlook; Iím not sure how fruitful your attempts at finding the good in people, things to be happy about and having an inwardly positive attitude would be. If you read it again, there are some pretty sweeping statements that are quite damming and quite depressing. I thought I may attempt to offer a different perspective, Iíve picked out the easier ones for me as Iíve only trying to illustrate a different perspective, not claim me or you is right/wrong or that I know much about anything.

Originally Posted by samsaraspath
People are comfort-seeking, blind, idiots who don't care about anything except their own percieved immediate needs
Some people are selfish and comfort seeking ; but I donít think this is all people all the time, and I donít think people are always fully aware of the implications of what theyíre doing (but indeed some are and do it anyway). A lot of these people that show these traits at times can equally show compassion, kindness and respect. There are many acts of kindness on a daily level, they are small at times, but sometimes just lending someone your ears over a cup of tea or beer can be of genuine value, it not all about being a Ghandi

Originally Posted by samsaraspath
Human life - or the universe, cosmic unconcious conciousness, God, or whatever - is not divine.
I would just add the caveat, Ďin your experience up to nowí. Peoples experiences and perspectives change all the time. I know my perspective on this matter has changed over time, although I havenít experienced any divinity as such, from what I have read and listened to Iím inclined to keep an open mind. I donít feel I know or have experienced enough to make a claim either way.

Originally Posted by samsaraspath
The universe and life on earth is just a collection of chemicals bouncing off one-another and our own personal conciousness is a fluke.
Does that mean we canít enjoy it? If it was a fluke then happy days, even more reason to look for enjoyable positives within yourself and externally in the World. Iím not saying things donít need to change in the World, they do, but I feel itís HOW people go about changing them; it can be done in a mainly negative or positive way.

Well, even if you donít agree with what Iíve said, my only suggestion would be to at least keep an open mind and try to challenging your existing outlook/thoughts a little. From what youíve written you seem to have a pretty definite/rigid outlook which doesnít seem to be working for you, so maybe loosen the grip on it a little. This may enable you to genuinely challenge and experiment with your existing ideas/thoughts. You may still reject/dismiss things, which is fair enough and to be expected, but at least the assessment would be from a more open/passive place rather than simply being dismissed by your existing outlook.

For what itís worth, I had a rigid outlook for quite some time and slowly challenged it bit by bit overtime (and I still do). I wonít tell you that I have found the solution to all my problems, they key to world peace or even significantly changed outwardly as a person, I have found a bit more peace and acceptance within me for myself and others.

Good luck!

Paul
 
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Old March 21st, 2012, 09:45   #9 (permalink)
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Samsaraspath wrote: "Otherwise pigs would fly, my eye color would change at will, and a rainbow-excreting-unicorn would take up residence in my front yard."

Hi Samsaraspath...

Funny how this stuff works out. Just yesterday, I was reading about people with Multiple Personality disorder, and the amazing physical changes which occur when they change personality.

Did you know that most of them leave the house with a half-dozen pair of glasses, or contact lenses, because each of them -- quite literally -- sees the world through different eyes?

Did you also know that -- ahem, yep -- sometimes their eyes actually change color? We are, to an absolutely amazing extent, who we believe we are.

You could look it up.

Best wishes, Bryan

(Oh, PS: Far as I know, however, nothing in the medical literature about unicorns and their multi-colored excretions. So you may be on safer ground there.)

Last edited by Bryan555 : March 21st, 2012 at 10:08.
 
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Old March 21st, 2012, 11:02   #10 (permalink)
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lol. That gave me a good chuckle. Thanks for that.

K, I'll conceed the eye-color issue. But the other two stand... at least 'till some scientist dude grows wings on a pig like they did human ears on mice.
 
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