OT: What do you think about that?

[Panthau]

YouTube - Muslimische Aussichten für die Zukunft Europas

Just curious about your oppinions.

Pan

[KeithP]

Originally Posted by Panthau

YouTube - Muslimische Aussichten für die Zukunft Europas

Just curious about your oppinions.

Pan

I am sure that I will make as good a Muslim as I am a Christian.

[Edwin]

A typical example of dualism.

"them" versus " us ".

Movies like this one are meant to spread fear. Fear is an excellent method to get a message across.
Especially if the message is dodgy.
Throw in a number of figures that seem scientific proof like "fertility rate" and you will have succeeded in planting fear in someone's heart.

What people seem to fear about the Islam is not so much Islam, but the culture around it. Give me an example of a "scary" verse from the Koran, and I can show you a similar text from the Bible.
Of course terrorism hasn't helped the Islam in it's popularity, I know, but that is a very small percentage of all Muslims. Most Muslims condemn acts of terrorism, because the Koran preaches peace just like the Bible does.

Most things that seem to be condemned about the Islam lately, are not dictated in the Koran, or are but can be interpreted in several ways.
Just like for centuries in the history of Christianity, a woman was supposed to be worth less than a man, because God created the woman from a rib from the man's chest. Made from man, thus less than a man. While in fact that story was made to show that women are equal to man, as she was made from the same flesh and bone of man. This is not a development in religion, but in culture. Unfortunately, the Islam has a rather strong culture.

However, and I can see this happening in the Netherlands, which has had a very open immigration policy the last 40 years, the second and third generation immigrants ( mostly Turkish and Maroccan ) have been born in our culture. They grow up and play with "native" Dutch ( lol never thought I would say that ) and thus, their view of the world can never be the same as their parents, who grew up in Marocco or Turkey. Who can tell me what our culture would be like in fifty years without Islam ? It could be better, but it could just as well be worse ! Who knows, Islam might be the saviour for our culture. I can't predict the future !

The key is to learn and explore each other's culture and religion, and meet somewhere in the middle.
Creating a "them" vs "us" will create hatred.

I am taking this very seriously. In the Netherlands, there are religions that feel the same, and have thus created a "platform" of different religions able to meet, discuss the differences, but more importantly, the similarities, and come to a new understanding of each other. I am part of that platform as a representative of our church. I have had some very spiritual talks with Muslims.

And then you begin to know something about "them". And with knowledge, fear disappears. There are different "schools" in the Islam, and I personally feel attracted to Sufism, they could be the "Gnostic's" of Islam I think. Sufism is more about exploring the Truth, rather than relying on blind faith. It is blind faith that creates a "them" versus "us" on their side of the meditteranian.

And then there is the problem of dictatorship.

Almost all country's in that region have militant dictators that control the media. The view that they have of us is as distorted as the view we have of them. Because all the filming material we see on the news is material provided and approved by their pressagency's. Just let this sink in for a minute...

What is your view Pan ?

[Panthau]

I understand and agree with your point of view. Especially the netherlands, as you said, is an example how different cultures together have to come along... i´ve seen it two years ago when i was in Rotterdam. It was kinda scary because there were so much black teenagers who didnt looked very happy.

We in europe can have all the information we want, but again, as you said, a lot of muslimic countrys have no freedom of opinion and people get misinformed from their birthday on.

Nevertheless, my own conflict with muslims is not their terror (which hasnt reached austria yet), but their culture and their approach towards different cultures. Ive been living since my childhood with people all over the world (living in vienna) and had always problems with muslims. Turkish people who´ve been living here for more then 20 years and still dont speak a word (!) german, teenager who have a very high aggression potential (tried to trip up my girlfriend in the tramway when she was in the 8th month pregnancy...that not enough, they then tried to hit her out of the tram and all that just out of boredom), muslims who make noise terror all day long and call us racists because we complain about that and so on.

It just seems like that people in europa slowly learn to see what religion is and grow out of it, while the religion from muslims is still very strong integrated in their culture, and that causes a lot of conflicts. A lot of muslim want all their religion freedom in other countrys, but dont accept any other religion (especially in their own country). Of course not all, but a big bunch of them. One could say that they are about 300 years behind europe in their evolution. Yes i know, its them and us...we´re all one...but that hadnt helped my girlfriend in the tramway ;-)

In Vienna, there are whole districts occupied with muslims. Even if the goverment dont want "ghettos", the muslim seem to want them, so they can live together and dont need to deal with a different culture.... integration not wanted by the to-integrate...lol

Clerks and functionarys often told me that they have big problems with muslims, that they are intolerant and bearish but take everything they get. All in all its a blurry picture most people here have from muslims. Of course my point of view is very subjective, but atm im also just human :-)

So thats what makes me think about how the future will be. My neighbour has had a nerve breakdown a few weeks ago because the muslims above him are making such noise terror and dont want to talk about it. Instead they call our neighbour racist and intolerant (ive never seen such a calm guy like my neighbour lol)....

[Edwin]

Thank you for being so honest.

I don't want to change your point of view or influence you, but what do you really know about Islam ? It's very easy to say "the Muslims" and judge them as such. I would rather say that you have had some troublesome encounters with Turkish or maybe Moroccan people, who may have been baptised as Muslims, but their behaviour obviously points in a different direction.

The whole integration bit...

In Spain, along the Costa's there are whole villages run by Dutch people who moved there after retirement.
Now these old-timers probably won't cause problems, but people feel more comfortable within their own culture. I have heard that there are still Dutch immigrants in the USA who moved there in the 60's, and still walk around with wooden shoes as if they only moved yesterday. And most Dutch don't even wear those anymore.

Ah well... It is a growing experience I guess.

[Panthau]

Of course...i would do the same if id move to another country. When i was 6 weeks in portugal, i learned alot about the country and after 5 weeks i could barely tell the shopman what i want to buy. Its a give and take...but that doesnt work with a lot people here it seems.

I dont know much about muslims as such or about Koran and Islam. Its just what i experienced and every single one of my friends (one of them, for example, was beeing stabbed down while waiting [beeing drunken] in the night for the bus because he had no cigarretes).

It just makes one more sensible to certain things.

[Edwin]

It's still hard to convince me that the problem with these ( obviously agressive ) guys is their religion.

I agree that there are countries in the middle-east that resemble the dark ages, both in poverty and in worldview.
But I still think that this is a cultural phenomena.

If passages from the Koran can be found that say that every Muslim has the right to smoke, and anyone without a light available must be stabbed, you will have convinced me.

I have 2 Moroccan friends. Moroccans are not that popular in the Netherlands.
I also have a Pakistani friend. All 3 are Muslim. The Pakistani even was a priest when he was younger.
They explained a lot to me about the Koran ( just found out about my Dutch spelling not being correct, in English it should be Qur'an ). Most things we don't like about Muslims are cultural, not dictated by the Koran.

You should check out this guy:
Rumi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or maybe you would like this version better :
Dschalal ad-Din ar-Rumi – Wikipedia

Please note: The Qur'an was EXACTLY the same then as it is now.
Unlike the Bible which has gone through numerous changes since then.

When reading verses from Rumi, it is very hard to maintain the same view on the Qur'an I think.

[Panthau]

Nono, im not talking about religion here - you´re right of course...these things doesnt have anything to do with religion, as you say - its the culture. Although many people seem to misinterpret the koran, because from what ive been reading so it doesnt say anything about suicide bombing. The thing with the damsels in heaven are a bit confusing, but i guess its just misinterpretation

Now...what to do when two different cultures meet each other, where one of them is much more aggressive and enrooted? I guess the stronger eats the weaker... is this is a good thing, a bad thing or just the way things are? For sure, things change like they always change...and change means fear to many people. There we are at the movie again

In the end personal experiences are bound to the law of attraction. Theres for sure a meaning behind my experiences and those of my girlfriend and my friends, i just dont get it yet.

Thanks for the link, ill check it out!

[Edwin]

The more you know about your "enemy" the better.

For decades, the USA and the USSR have been "in war".
And the fact that they never fought, has to do with the fact that they tried to find out as much as they could about each other. Ian Fleming got rich with that fact

An example:
A friend of mine was a police officer in Amsterdam, in a ghetto that had mostly Turkish people. The youth kept posing problems to him. He didn't know how to handle the matter, and kept taking the troublemakers to the police station, after which angry parents would show up to collect them, oftan with a whole group of family and friends, shouting how unfair it was.

At one time, a superior of my friend came to him and said that it would be better to just get the kid to tell his name, and then go to the "Imam" ( I hope that it has the same spelling in English ), the local spiritual leader in the community.

And so, he did. The Imam visited the parents house, the parents punished the kids ( also, I am afraid, in a way that is considered normal in their culture ) and they never caused trouble again.

That is what I mean with understanding each other. It goes beyond just wanting to accept them, it means finding a way to co-exist in a way that is acceptable for BOTH cultures. That may take some creativity. But in 50 years, their culture and ours will have done that, I have no doubt. And if not, I will become a "Sufi"

[Panthau]

LOL!

That reminds me on a real funny video about a turkish man who doesnt get into the disco, and starts insulting the security. The security takes him aside and tells him he knows his brother and will call him if he doesnt calm down... just take a look at his face when i says that

YouTube - Bruder anrufe

Maybe you´re right, i hope so :-)