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Torn between doing and being still

Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Panthau, May 16, 2010.

  1. Panthau

    Panthau Member


    Im really torn. So what about all these yoga, pranayama, samyama, whatever?

    Papaji says "The concept of every exhausting spiritual practice, which gets you to your desired goal, is a new entanglement in the game of light without substance."

    On the other hand, we´re a meditating community, arent we? It is good for something... is it good to find out that we dont need any meditation? And what about the other "tools" like mentioned above?

    I have this picture of someone trying to climb a mountain to get back to the ground on the other side.

  2. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    And Muktananda says... And D.T. Suzuki says... And Wayne Dyer says... And Yogananda says... And Lao Tsu says... And Thomas Merton says... And Deepak Chopra says... and Zarathustra says... And the Bhagavad Gita says... and the Bible says... and the Tibetan Book of the Dead says...

    If you read and listen long enough you'll soon realize that everyone has something to say. Inevitably you'll uncover conflict and even outright contradictions between them. All of them are just fingers pointing towards the moon. They're not the moon. They all speak or write from their own perspective, to a particular audience with needs that are peculiar to that audience; to that culture; to that time period. Each taught based on their unique personal experiences. Some things overlap and some things don't. Some things harmonize nicely and other things seem to crash headlong into the others. Don't lose sleep over it.

    There will always be fingers pointing to the moon. There will always be "someone who says..." Forget the pointing fingers. Look at the moon. Experience the moon for yourself.

    What is it "Pan says..."?
  3. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    Thanks Ta-tsu-wa, i understand.

    He seems confused. Feels like im starring at a wall,
    wondering where the wall is. When can i allow myself to
    not ask anymore, but see?
  4. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    That sounds like the perfect place to be. That sense of confusion is what will motivate you to move beyond it. Just don't get hung up on what others say about the journey. Take the sayings and teachings of everyone as nothing more than an approximation of what they themselves experienced along their own path. Knowing where others have been is an important starting point for your search, but their experiences are only the beginning of your own journey, not its end.
  5. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    Yeah maybe its a good place to be, being sick of books, concepts and even my own

    Also called mood swings lol
  6. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    Why do you think the thoughts are "yours"? How do you know they're yours? Have you ever met the "you" that's having those thoughts?

    Who are you, Pan? ARE you Pan? Or do you only think you're Pan? If that's the case, who is it that is thinking they're Pan? And is that person in fact thinking at all? Or is that person merely catching hold of random "Pan thoughts" as they drift by?

    Oh, my... Did I just think all that nonsense and type it out? Or did you think it and I typed it? Or did someone else think it and we're both reading it just now for the first time?

    Which is it, Pan? Does it even matter?

    Think about that.

    Or don't. It makes no difference. Those thoughts will all be there later if you decide it's worth looking at them. And they'll be there later if you decide it's not worth it.

    I think...?
  7. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    I should have never begun with all these concepts. The Problem is, i know it, i know that my "i" is just a bunch of thoughts and conditionings... but that makes it even worse. My mind shows me the concept, instead of looking at the text without much interpretation.

    When i look back, there´s much Pan here... talking about this or that, having great ideas and insights. But its all the intellectual Pan, who understands everything. I feel like a chatterbox.

    Looks like im still scared of opening up to the truth, and instead creating myself pictures of it. Im fed up with it.
  8. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    Your "I" is not a bad thing, Pan. Consider this: Suppose all of us originate in some vast, infinite Intelligence that is in, through, and of all things, sort of the way that eastern religions view things. Let's say that they're right, and that's where all of us come from and what all of us belong to, even if we don't experience that fact right at this moment.

    Alright, then at some point this infinite Self decided it should experience itself as little, individual "I"s, one of which is known on this forum as Pan, another as Ta-Tsu-Wa. So here we are, having this discussion. And Pan thinks that he should somehow dissolve his "I" and blend seamlessly back into the infinite Intelligence from whence he came. He's somehow gotten it in his head his "I" is an undesirable thing he must overcome and blend out of existence.

    Why? What is the source of such a belief? Something you've heard? Something you're read? Something others have taught to you? You were already a seamless part of the infinite Intelligence before it determined it should create little individuals. In Its infinite wisdom It understood that to be nothing but One, without any other is not the highest or most desirable state. If the truth was otherwise It would never have bothered to fashion individual "I"s in the first place.

    But it did, and you and I are the proof of that. Is regaining our sense of Oneness important? It probably is. But is it the total goal of the master plan of infinite Intelligence? Obviously not. Our sense of individuality must be important and it must be a crucial factor in the intentions of infinite Intelligence. Perhaps in the end our sense of individuality will turn out to be a form of illusion, but it is a worthwhile and necessary illusion that serves a purpose largely beyond what we comprehend at this point in time.

    Of course you don't want to slip into the trap of accepting your "I" as being the ONLY facet to your existence. If perceiving ourselves ONLY as the One was insufficient to the purposes of infinite Intelligence it stands to reason that making the same mistake with individuality is equally insufficient. When we awaken we experience ourselves both as One and as Individual. That seems to be the design of the great plan of infinite Intelligence.

    So give yourself a break. It's intended you will both enjoy and explore your individuality in all its wonders, just as it's intended you will come to reclaim the knowledge of what it is to be the One itself. Whichever aspect of your Being you work on, Oneness, or Individuality, it all serves the great purpose. You shouldn't be discouraged one way or the other. Be with both.

    You remember what I wrote about "Someone says..."? Well, now "Ta-Tsu-Wa says..." and you can take that with as much of a grain of salt as all those other folks I mentioned.
    Last edited: May 17, 2010
  9. chris063

    chris063 Member

    I come here for a browse after months away, and I find this beautiful conversation going on!

    Thank you Both, very much!!!

  10. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    Thanks for your empathy Ta-tsu-wa, you have a point!

    Its the drama of my own expectations.

    When i wrote this sentence, i recognized that i cut myself of from the frustrating feeling. My mind knows its garbage, so why should i feel frustrated? But the feelings already there, and so i get stuck within it.

    It seems the same with my expectations. My mind tells me exactly to know what im reading about and paints me this large and believable picture of what i want to see, and so cuts my perception of off the real thing.

    I have no answer to this yet, but maybe alone the realization is a beginning, to learn to lay my mind aside and just be.

    Oh, and btw: hi chris! Hope you´re doing well? :) :)
    Last edited: May 18, 2010
  11. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    Let's say you're right, Pan. Your mind paints pictures of things rather than permitting you to perceive directly. For the moment at least, that's the situation you have to work with.

    What can you do with that?

    Notice the question wasn't what you can do "about" that. Don't approach the situation as an obstacle to challenge and overcome. What you can do "with" it?

    Use everything Pan, not limiting yourself to using just the things you believe ought to be. Many things that ought to be, aren't, and many things that ought not to be, are. No one, and I mean NO ONE, lives in a way such that everything they experience is what they thought would be the best way for things to go down. It isn't about having all the right cards, but about using all the cards you do have right.

    Forget about what you could do to try to change it or fix it. What could you do with this set of circumstances, just as you've described them, that still moves you in a productive direction?

    Here's a visualization that might help you frame your circumstances in a new way:

    Pan is a small stream whose ultimate purpose is to grow into a mighty river. He has a plan or at least an idea about how this will come about. He flows along, day after day, and from time to time it rains. With each passing rain shower Pan fills slightly and grows a bit larger. Given enough days and enough rain showers attaining his objective seems inevitable. His plan is working to perfection.


    He notices a small rivulet of water running along side him. Sometimes it runs in more or less the same direction as Pan, other times it winds away sideways and disappears for a time. Occasionally it even crosses over Pan's own course, leading away some of Pan's own precious, and hard won water.

    What are some options available to our Pan stream?
  12. chris063

    chris063 Member

    Hello Pan!

    I am doing well thank you, although a little like yourself I think in that insights come and go, sometimes leaving a sense of frustration that nothing seems to be changing, and also amplifying the sense that knowledge is one thing, EXPERIENCING is quite another!

    I agree wholeheartedly with everything Ta-Tsu-Wa is saying here. There is SO MUCH information out there now, so much of other people's experiences, that sometimes it is easy to get caught up into thinking that we should 'be' a certain way, seeing, doing, how others have. I also think that the beauty of meditation is that it gives us a clear space in which to hear and feel our Inner selves, connect more fully with our Source, and it gives us a place to find our own answers, we just need to ask the right questions and learn to listen when those answers come.

    Gut feeling, instinct, we have lots of ways of knowing if we could be Doing, or simply Being, but either way, I am sure we are here in the form that we are for a very good reason, physical bodies, emotions, run-away thoughts and all! Everyone's experiences are totally unique, seen from a completely individual perspective because of all of these factors, and if you look at it that way from a Universal Intellingence perspective, how much better could it get, wouldn't that be a truly amazing way to really experience, learn, grow, expand?

    If you believe what you can read in books from channelled sources, there is always the same message. The Universe is expanding infinitely, there are lessons to be learned which haven't even been thought of yet, NO-ONE has all the answers, not even Source, by the sounds of it. It is growing along with us, learning with us and from us, and our experiences are valuable, each and every one of them.

    Quite brilliant really, when you think about it! A beautiful journey of discovery for us all :)

    Much Light and Joy to you Both,

    Chris :):):)
  13. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    Chris, as I am a great lover of cats I have added an avatar image to my posts. Perhaps this image will resonate with you and Pan :eek:

    This is the message my cats routinely send me, usually about the time they feel their litterbox should be changed and I think it's got another good day or two as it is.
  14. Edwin

    Edwin Member

    Absolutely love the new avatar !

    and hugely enjoying this thread BTW.
  15. All of them are just fingers pointing towards the moon. They're not the moon.

    -Beautifully spoken :)
  16. chris063

    chris063 Member

    Thank you Ta-tsu-wa, I love it!! :):):)

    I have been honoured to be allowed to live with four cats so far in my lifetime :) they do truly seem to have conquered the subtleties of Life as we know it on this planet, don't they?!

    Much Peace to you, and to your feline friends!

    Chris :)
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Member

    My cat has a quite clear way of letting me know when he feels the litterbox should be cleaned...

    He pees next to it...

    Everything we experience in life is part of the package.
    Fear, drama, tension, pleasure, orgasms, hot air, wind, breaking wind, the smell of fresly cut grass, coffee, worries, being wrapped up in thoughts, watching your loved ones fall away, kids growing up, a hailstorm...
    and in my case, watching the business I worked my rear end off for the last 10 years go bankrupt.
    I don't know what my future has in store for me, but without some help I face a future without my job, my house, and my car...
    And still I realise that as dramatic as this seems, and how doom and gloom this might look to the reader, I also know that there is a constant factor within all these experiences... The one who is experiencing it, the centerless center of all.

    When realising that everything else that is happening within that one consciousness/awareness is temporary, and the consciousness/awareness itself is timeless, outside time, there is a strange comfort in that, and it gives you the power to experience whatever happens when it does, now, raw, unfiltered by mind.
    The seeming "I" that one can't escape from within earthbound life, seems to go through a dramatic experience. Pain is experienced as pain, love as love, gratitude as gratitude.
    Yet this is temporary, and it will pass, as does everything.

    When I was a child
    trees were trees,
    People people
    And horses were horses.
    The sky was the sky
    And the sun was the sun.

    Then I went searching
    And became spiritual.
    Then trees were people
    People were the sun.
    The sun was clouds
    and the clouds were water.

    Now that I have found myself again
    Trees are again trees
    And the sun is the sun
    People are people again
    A cloud again a cloud.
  18. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    Hi again and thanks for your opinions!

    I dont quite understand this analogy, but maybe thats a good thing *lol*
    Of course, melting with the little one would be an option...

    The thing is, in the end i dont care that much about being enlightened (as i have no clue about it anyway), and i dont care about abilities or whatever meditation could bring. I have only one desire, and that is to be free. I thought meditation and enlightement are good doorways to free myself from my inner barriers, and indeed they are somehow... but of course, being attached to results wont make me as free as i want to be.

    Lifeflow was a big help so far, and now AYP will maybe help my little i further along with LF. As theres nothing to accomplish, theres nothing to give up, isnt it? :)

    Thats a very positive way of seeing things, i like it :) :)


    Hope you get your problems solved Edwin... the ability to not being attached to results and clearly focused on what one wants is a bless. But i could imagine that its quite hard to not being attached to 10 years of work...

  19. Edwin

    Edwin Member

    Thanks :)
    Ability ? It is not an ability to not be attached...

    There is no attachment. Like I said in another post, I don't have to superglue myself to a car in order to drive it.

    Sure, I experience feelings of sadness, and frustration ( especially since the business, and everything alongside it can be saved if my creditors would allow me some slack ).
    This also comes with the package. When I try to deny certain emotions or feelings, they will come back with a vengeance.

    Actually, and this may seem like a scary thought to you, there is no denying.
    It's impossible to deny anything.
    Whatever happens, it takes place immediately, and the mind can only react to it. It should by now be obvious to you that you are not your mind. You are that in which everything happens, including whatever the mind reacts to.
    This is the comforting part to me. Whatever the mind may disagree with, the situation will allready have taken place in your consciousness/awareness when it reacts.
    But the reaction of the mind itself, and the emotions that come with it, are also immediately seen in consciousness/awareness. So this also happens without anything that you can do about it. Your mind can only react to this too. And that reaction is also effortlessly and immediately seen by consciousness/awareness.

    See where this is going ?
  20. olmate

    olmate Member

    Hi Pan,

    Olmate sometimes tries a little mind conversation that prohibits the use of "me, I, mine, etc.".

    It shows how possessive of the first person conversations can be.


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