Taking a step into the world of our Being

Discussion in 'Eckhart Tolle' started by angelaIBSH, Jun 8, 2009.

  1. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    I was reading where Tolle describes God as Being and it blew me away...(talk about mind identification),because I was raised in a christian family and you know how God is so human over there....I can resonate perfectly with what Tolle is saying,but after decades of thinking God was semi-human,I get caught up in thinking again...does this make God generic....I cannot speak to him or pray cause he's not really there....OMG the atheists were right etc,etc,etc.lol

    So I suppose I haven't quite grasped what God is.

    I've seen that movie too,you know,but my experiences are vague there as well....so I was wondering if there is a way to improve on the length or quality of presence.Thank you both for your detailed answers.:)
     
  2. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Gonna leave this one to Giles ;)
    It may seem as if I am putting you off with my answer, but it really is like this:
    The only way to improve presence is to become enlightened, and the only way to become enlightened is to improve presence. The thing that is keeping you from experiencing the Self is a collection of thoughts, appearing in awareness

    Ego is what you currently think is your identity, while it is not. Ego is just a collection of thoughts. And thoughts come up unfiltered. You might have noticed this as well during meditation, there is nothing you can do to stop thought from coming. You can only surpress thoughts, but this is an action you take after the thought has appeared. Where do these thoughts come from ? Nobody knows, they come up. And we always seem to want to believe every thought to be true.
    When realisation, or enlightenment has occurred, thoughts still arise, tho not as much, but there is the realisation that the thought " I " is not who you are.

    Example:
    When you think " I am tired " this is a thought that wants to describe a feeling of tiredness that is experienced in the body.
    Your body may be tired, but are you ? Is the Self tired at the same time as your body ? If you really were tiredness, how would you know ? You couldn't, because you would be tiredness all the time.
    Water is wetness, and can never be not-wetness, as it is wet all the time.

    No, you, your awareness observes tiredness in the body because it is seperate from your body, not an integrated part of it. It can view from a distance. There is a space between the body and the Self. And as soon as the Self sees tiredness, mind comes along, and claims 3 things:
    That these thoughts " I am Tired " are who you are, that this thought " I " is your self, and that the thoughts are tired. How can a thought be tired ? And even more amazing, how can the word " I " suddenly transform into you ?

    Your awareness watches the words come by because it is seperate from your thoughts as well as your body. This awareness is the real you.

    check out this site:
    End of Seeking - End of Searching - Home Page

    Specifically this page: End of Seeking - End of Searching - Eckhart Tolle's Spiritual Practices
     
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2009
  3. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Will come back and answer later if I have time. ;)
     
  4. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    Thank you for the very useful information Edwin-and the links have gone to my favorites.
    I'll check later to see if Giles had anything to say.;)
     
  5. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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  6. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Yeah, yeah, I'm working on it. V.Busy at work at the minute. ;)
     
  7. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Ok, apologies for the delay, I've had a lot on at work and the response for this is not something that can really be summarised in a short reply. I also needed some time to contemplate the best way to answer this with my own truth.

    Firstly, let me say, anything in my response is my own understanding, my own truth and what is valid for me. There is no intention of my words being against any religion or even favouring one religion over another. And, for sake of argument, I talk about atheism as a religion too, as it too is based on beliefs (There are two types of atheism; the fundamentalist aetheists who staunchly insist there is definitely no god and fight (sometimes literally) against other religions and the regular atheists who are happy with their own belief there is no god, but don't go out of their way to fight those who choose to believe in other things).

    So, being into complementary therapies myself (including Reiki, EFT etc.), these are often classified as being "spiritual" practices, yet, if I talk to others about what I do, they automatically assume that this makes me a spiritualist (someone who believes in communicating with the dead, that there are spirit guides etc. etc.) and this is a common confusion between someone who is being spiritual, and a spiritualist. It then usually gets assumed that I believe in God, or I'm religious in some way. How I answer this usually depends on how much time I have to discuss with the person.

    The usual answer is that "No, I don't believe in God, I'm an atheist" (the non fundamentalist type), because I know that, like you said, God is seen as being some human like "other" entity; the beardy old bloke in the heavens looking down on us who we should pray to, worship and fear. If I say I believe in God, most tend to assume that I'm Christian of some sort (I was raised in Church of England, but that was childhood), as I certainly wouldn't fit the stereotypical image (others views) of, say, being Jewish or Muslim.

    Now, if I have time, I will actually answer "Yes, I believe in God, but perhaps not in the traditional sense that most do.", and this is where the conversation can last a long time.... :)

    So, coming back to the point of the question asked, who is this God fella anyway?

    Typically a Christian church will teach that God is the creator of everything, that he created the universe, the planets, and us. Likewise we learn that Jesus was God incarnated in human form and this is why people pray to Jesus as well as God (and likewise the Catholics pray to Mary as the mother of God, who, logically thinking, must therefore be God herself).

    But we are also taught that we are subserviant to God, we see Him (or Her) as a seperate entity that we must respect, look up to, pray to and worship, and, in the case of churches, fear the wrath of.

    Now, other churches, will see God as something different, some having more than one God (let's not get into the details).

    Here then we have different churches with different views on who or what God is, all claiming that their God is the true God and other churches God's are false. etc .etc. This is all a very dualistic view of "ours" and "yours" and is the core reason for conflict. These churches (or simply just people with their own beliefs) become so attached to their own truth (again a dualistic view) that they would not even entertain the idea that their true God is the same as everyone elses, but that everyone is explaining it in different ways; different terminology; different languages; different cultures etc. (Of course there are those who use a concept of God for control, but that's a whole religous topic in itself).

    If we just step sideways for a second and look at religious texts...

    The Bible of the Christian church is a wonderful book. It's full of wonderful wise teachings. So why are some bibles worded differently to other bibles? Is the bible different from other religious texts of other religions? The key comes down to interpretation and language barriers, as well as some churches/organisations desire to control using the wise teachings often by changing wording and then relying on taking that wording literally.

    Looking at the history of relious texts we can go back to such scriptures as the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita. These are ancient wise teachings of unknown authorship written in sanksrit and date from long before Jesus' time. But, if we look at translations of these sanksrit texts and compare them with other mainstream (and long term) religious texts and philosophies we can find great similarities, whether that is with the Christian bible, the K'oran, Buddhist teachings etc. The terminology and names may differ, but the concepts and wise teachings can clearly be seen to be the same. There is no conflict; they are all teaching the same, and they are all likely to have been interpretations of the same teachings as they spread around the world, just given a different label and then, unfortunately, often misinterpreted and used for the wrong reasons.

    (Note: Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita are text that the Vedic teachings of philosophy are based upon)

    But this still doesn't answer who or what God is.

    In truth we can only accept God as being what we know to be true in our own experience, perhaps let me give an example...

    From my own awareness, I can observe my thoughts arising and changing. If I am observing those thoughts, I am not those thoughts.
    From my own awareness, I can observe my memories come and go. If I am observing those memories, I am not those memories.
    From my own awareness, I can observe my emotions as they change from one moment to the next. If I am observing those emotions I cannot be those emotions.
    From my own awareness, I can observe a person standing in front of me, I know therefore that I am not that person.

    (now taking an example from the Headless Way (The Headless Way -- Douglas Harding))...

    If I point at my legs, I can see them and I am aware of them. (assuming my stomach isn't too big ;) )
    If I point at my stomach, I can see it and I am aware of it.
    If I point at my chest, I can see it and I am aware of it.
    If I point at my face, ...... there is nothing there to see, but I am still aware. I am in fact pointing at my awareness. This awareness is my true Self.

    Now, you may tell me that I have a face or in fact a whole head, but that is what you are aware of from your own evidence. But from your own evidence do you have a face or head? I can tell you you do, but your own evidence tells you otherwise (and bear in mind that a mirror is not evidence directly from your own awareness). And my own evidence tells me I have no head, but I'm simply the awareness that is here.

    I am the observer. Everything I observe is in my awareness.

    Now, if everything is in my awareness from my own evidence, including you. And, from your evidence, everything is in your awareness, including me, then we exist within each others awareness.

    Expand this concept, and very simply, everything is within everything elses awareness, or, more simply put, everything is One.

    So, when I meditate (or you or whoever meditates), we bring ourselves to a state of awareness. This awareness allows us to observe these other things (thoughts, memories, emotions etc.) as seperate from ourselves, yet completely within our awareness. This seems like a pardox. How can something be seperate from us yet within us. The answer to this, for me, is when we consider that these things are not actually seperate from us, they are actually an inherent part of us, they are a part of our True Self. Again, everything is One. We are the "creator" of these things. Yet, our true Self is unchanging, it is simply awareness. So, whatever these things are that appear to change, they already exist in all their possible forms and we are simply being aware of different things at different times, including time itself.

    If I created you and you created me and we all created this universe and the thoughts and memories and concepts of everything. Then we are all God.

    The wisdom that is taught in the Upanishads, Bhagavad Gita (and Rg Veda etc) are all part of the Vedic teachings and the same wisdom you can find in most religious texts if you read between the lines. These wise teachings include the concept of the True Self or unchanging observer as well as the methods for meditation and how to become truly present and Self-Realized, and of course the concept that all is One.

    It's not a concept that is easy to put in words, and this is just my own understanding at this moment. I hope it has made sense.

    Or course I could be wrong and you may come up with a different concept of what God is for you. Whatever works for you is the truth. ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  8. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Well worth the wait :cool:

    That is about the only way to describe what it is, by describing what it isn't.

    Well done Giles !
     
  9. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    Great point Giles,and I've been there too-albeit on a more superficial level.
    But the logistics were the same.
    However,at this point in time,I find myself questioning if the supposed awareness is a mental contruct in itself.It may appear that the mind is shut off in order to see,but the seeing is done at least partially from the mind,or so to me it seems.
    In other words,I know that Tolle is definetely on to something big,but I wonder if that joy of being is not at least a mind-construct.If it is,who's to say that it is just partially and not an alternative ego?
    I do feel that this awareness of knowing there's something behind the something points to God,but I'm not sure that it is right or just a well thought out contrieve to figure out the no-thing.
    Thanks again to you and Edwin.
    (That is one beautiful country you live in Edwin,by the way,and I am constantly using the LOA to see if I can make things better and visit someday.Things are working,but kinda slow.lol)
     
  10. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    EXCELLENT !!!

    Find out !

    Don't wonder if awareness is a construct, investigate it within yourself.
    You are definately onto something.

    You know that you arrive there when you can't describe it.
    As long as you can describe awareness, it is a mental construct of awareness. As soon as your mind goes blank, and you get this strange spaceous sensation, and a strange empty, relaxed feeling, that's when you are getting close.
     
  11. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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  12. Fergusclan

    Fergusclan Member

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    Wow Giles. That is exactly how I see it too, I must be getting closer...
     
  13. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    Thanks for the link Edwin,I'm taking a good long seethrough.

    Great pointers there my friend.Thanks again.:D
     
  14. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    If you can see (be aware of) the mind in action, you cannot be the mind. ;)

    Tolle is very learned and teaches the philosophy well, however, it's not something he's on to, but something that has always been. The philosophy he teaches is no different from the Vedic teachings, just re-worded for the modern Western audience.

    Be careful not to confuse emotional feelings with truth. True Joy = True Love = True Bliss = True Truth = True Self. These are all the same thing. When the True self becomes attached to emotions it becomes Ahankara (the ego) and is no longer the truth. Emotional Joy does not equal True Joy. True Joy always exists (but is sometimes covered up by our mind/emotions etc.). Emotional Joy comes and goes.

    Being the truth, you will come to know it as true from your own experience. Nobody can tell you wat is true, you can only find that out for yourself.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  15. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    This is the ultimate truth.

    Until you experience it yourself, please keep asking questions, search inside yourself to find your Self so to speak.

    You will know this to be true when you know it.

    We need a seperate section of the forum Giles !;)
     
  16. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Too right! If Eckhart can have his own section here we can't we. ;) And he doesn't even come on and contribute. LOL! :D
     
  17. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    The Vedics are doctrinal and exclusive in nature whereas Eckhart is non-secular.

    Anyway to my main point:

    Tis is what I don't know to be true.
    If I watch over my mind,it may be an experience similar to when I see my reflection in the mirror.
    I cannot percieve without mind.Or so I currently believe.
    I may be able to partially shut it off,and not be enslaved to it for sure,but as to my current state of consciousness if I can percieve something,even if it is emptiness and silence,I do not know that it isn't from an untapped source of mind or alter-ego.


    My other question would be...if we are not the mind,as I am totally aware of,what do you all think of reincarnation?Is it a possibility?

    Thanks in advance,
    william.
     
  18. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    They are only doctrinal if the writings are taken literally, rather than wisdom illustrations as they are intended. Vedic philosophy is just that, a philosophy. Some religions mis-use them just as some mis-use the writings of the bible.

    Vedic philosophy cannot be exclusive. Exclusivity implies duality; Vedic philosophy teaches Oneness.

    Only you will be able to determine that. That is part of your search for truth. ;)

    You are referring to reincarnation in human form? As a possibility, yes, it's theoretically possible. Science tells us that energy cannot be created or destroyed, so even if the physical body dies, the energy that is a part of the True Self (whether you percieve that as the mind, thoughts, memories etc. or something else), could surely move on and attach to the same in another physical form. I think that would be a whole thread topic in itself. :rolleyes:

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  19. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    Understood.

    Yes...but I was hoping for your output.lol
    I don't have to follow anyone on anything,but I may be able to find pointers in external words that may help me on my way home.

    And I've had inklings of it myself,which confuses me because I can't figure out what the point would be.
    Oh well,regardless,thanks again.:)
     
  20. Eady

    Eady Member

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    Man this is the longest thread in the world I don't have much input to say in this topic but I do have a question I have been using creative flow and optimal learning to try and expand my horizons on being more creative but for some reason I've been in a slump and its actually going in reverse and I feel constricted to a box instead of being free willing is it possible I am trying to hard ??!!!
     

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