Discussion in 'Eckhart Tolle' started by angelaIBSH, Jun 8, 2009.
नमस्ते[/QUOTE] ke tapai yo bhasa prakashta bhujnu ani bolnu huncha?
I guess the answer is, not really. Either that, or you just asked my aardvark for its hand in marriage (I'm not sure if they have aardvarks in Nepal). ;-)
yes,It's the first answer. It's a beautiful language.I'm not from there but no i can assure they don't have aadvarks there.they are from africa if i'm not mistaken.
let me also this opportunity to thank you for all your invaluable posts on this forum.
oh and your aadvark is safe.
love and peace
Thats exactly what i felt a few weeks ago! Like everything that is me is right now right here and it was like when i would move, things around me move but im still in the same place...hard to describe hehe
It will always be hard to describe, because the experience is beyond mind.
That feeling, that you experienced, is allready part of enlightenment.
With you, it went away, probably because you were either focused on the wrong part of the experience, or because you allowed your mind to take over again.
I had the same thing when I wrote the post http://www.project-meditation.org/community/meditation-chatter-box/1324-brief-moment.html
. I was so taken by the experience and the feelings, that I forgot to keep the focus on who was having the experience.
Now, mind was constantly trying to categorise and store what I was experiencing, it was trying to write the story of enlightenment so to speak.
And as it was trying to describe it all, the focus came back to mind and I stepped out of the Now. As soon as that happened, I felt I had lost my connection to that wonderfull place I had been in.
I immediately felt homesick, I wanted to return to it, and that was impossible. I tried to return to the mental image I had made of what I thought enlightenment was.
I was so taken over by mind ( it can be vicious ) that it tried to move me around the fact that I had found the Now by a rather simple exercise.
As soon as I was trying to return to the memory, mind was enjoying every minute of it. I was focusing all my attention on it's memories, it's thoughts, it's ideas, however silly they may be.
Even now, after having experienced another realisation, after which by standards of Advaita Vedanta I am considered enlightened, I am taken over by mind every now and then. Life can be quite challenging, and when you start believing the stories that mind makes up about life again, you stop noticing that Now is the life that is real.
But, life is meditation, and everything that we have been taught by Michael about meditation can be used in daily life as well:
- As soon as you notice that you have been involved in a daydream, gently bring back your attention to the Now. Sounds the same as what Michael sais about going back to the mantra eh ? How to do this ? Quite easy, feel your body. Hear and feel yourself breathing, feel your arms and legs, feel how life itself seems to be buzzing inside your limbs. You feel this Now, constantly. You can't feel it yesterday, or tomorrow, or 5 minutes from now even. You can only feel it Now.
- Thoughts and images, everything you see, hear and feel are essentially just objects. They come up, they pass. They are form, and are there for you to play with while the world of form asks for it. But in the end, the only thing that is constant, always ever present, is You, the subjective core of your Self
Realise that you can't make a subject out of an object. Thoughts are objects too, they appear in your mind, and you observe them. You are not part of the thoughts, you are the observer of them. Allow them to pass like clouds.
- Surrender to the Now.
Whatever comes up, whatever problem might occur, realise that it can never hurt your true Being. Being itself is God, and God is in everybody. If you are going to try the "Who am I" meditation, you will notice that the I or Being is without shape, without texture, without beginning or end. It is both eternal and everywhere. Does Being end where another person begins ?
No ! It can't !
That means that the other person is part of that same Being. Being is everywhere. So you might as well call Being God.
So, all that is happening in the world, is essentially just God playing with Itself. Or playing with Its Self you could say.
Everything that is happening, is happening as a celebration of creation within the world of form. A testemony to the greatness of God's creative power.
All we see and touch and think of as solid is essentially just atoms, a collection of electrically charged particles around a core of other electrically charged particles. Think of the enormous amount of energy it took to make even one atom. Now look around you. The keys you are tapping on your keyboard house enough energy to destroy a country. Yet we are here, playing with atoms, reorganising them, changing the chemical structure of oil and wood and stone without even one atom failing. No wonder the Law of Attraction works for us. Everything happens within our own Being !
Now look back at your life. Whatever happened to you, didn't happen to You.
Sure, your form was there when it happened. Your eternal Self, essentially God, was not just there at that moment, it was everywhere. Just as it is right Now.
Accept the Now, embrace it, realise that you are just playing with Form. When that realisation comes, when you see that you are not just part of your bodily form but part of God, the "bigger picture", everything changes.
When you step back and watch your thoughts, reactions to life, movements within life from Being itself, completely in the Now, you realise that your thoughts have not really attributed to your life.
Thoughts are like pilot fish. They are attached to you like pilot fish are attached to a shark. They are constantly chattering "go left here, go right there, see, I told you right was the best way to go".
But in the end, they are only reacting to the direction the Self is going, unaware of the chattering of the mind.
Life, that enormous power that we seem to think we have control over, goes it's way, no matter what we think of it.
"Life is what happens to you while you're busy making other plans. John Lennon"
Does that mean that everything is pre-destined ? I don't think so. Everything is happening Now, and we are reacting Now. How oftan have you thought to yourself "Now why the heck did I go and do a thing like that".
Recent research has shown that the part of the brain that regulates movement comes into action about half a second BEFORE you think about it, or rather, before the left hemisphere responsible for thought was activated.
So, if you think: "I am picking up that glass of water" and your arm starts moving, that means that your brain knew you were going to do that half a second before you thought about it.
Science is now puzzled beyond reason as to who came first, chicken or egg.
Where did the order to the arm come from to pick up that glass, when you hadn't thought about it yet ?
For me the conclusion is simple:
The order came from Being, the Self. Thought is but a Pilot fish, saying "ok arm, move left, move right, see, I told you that we are going the right way".
It's claiming copyright over an action it had absolutely nothing to do with.
Thought is a re-sponse to actions done intuitively, or by Self if you will.
You make the movement happen, not your thought.
It's mindfull chatter instead of mindless chatter. One way or the other, it is both just a lot of bull.
You won't stop moving or doing the right thing when you stop thinking, crazy as this may sound to you. How many times has it happened to you that you were driving your car, and ended up at the destination only to wake up from a daydream, realising that your drove there on autopilot ? You have passed several traffic lights, and a dangerous crossroad, without even thinking about it, yet you didn't ignore a red light, or the other cars around you.
Thought is able to interfere tho.
When in doubt, you're in thought, you might say
Try doing something simple like the dishes or sweeping the sidewalk without thought first. Try to "step back", and watch your body move, feel your breathing, the sensation of the broom or the dishwater or whatever simple task you are doing at that moment. Try to observe your movement, think of yourself as a reporter, observing the event of doing the dishes, or sweeping the sidewalk.
Try it and be amazed !
Most excellently put Edwin.
It is like trying to describe, in detail, a dictionary, without using all the words in it. It can't be done. The only thing that can fully describe the dictionary is the dictionary itself. Likewise, the only way to describe enlightenment is to BE enlightenment. No analogy will suffice.
That doesn't stop me from trying tho
So my conclusion, if you stay in this awareness, you are enlighted. And ready to die?
Most of what you said makes sense to me, and surely not only to me. But that doesnt explain why we are here and what we are. These are the things that im hunting hehe.
Im glad i can have such moments with Lifeflow. Even if i dont feel ready yet for the "who am i" meditation (i tried it a few weeks ago, didnt knew at that moment from your posts, but it didnt work for me anyway), but im on a great journey, the path im going...its the right direction at last.
I was born, i was perfect...i then (like everyone else) experienced a whole bunch of feelings which i couldnt handle. The more unprocessed feelings i had, the more i was imbalanced (im still) and the more the feelings-mountain growed.
With Lifeflow its like going back to where i came from. The feelings-mountain is shrinking and i gain access to unbelievable resources inside me, which i always knew they were there...but without any access. Does that sound theatrically? hehe i dont care
For me its interesting that this "higher me" is always there. Im always able to watch my actions and my "me" from a (so it seems) different perspective than others (i know). Theres this huuge difference from this "higher me" which knows what i could be able to do and to be, and this "lower me" which feels like someone having his first life in this world.
Anyway...thanks for sharing guys.
The True Self never dies, it always IS. So I guess you are talking about the physical body that we are attached to? Yes, it's fair to say that if you are permanently aware then you are what would be called "enlightened" or "fully Realized". However does that mean you are "ready" to die? Depends what you mean by "ready". Perhaps look at it more simply as the fact that the body will die when it is ready to; when it has reached a point where it can serve us no longer, rather than the True Self being ready.
By "we" I can only assume you are referring to the physical body. We (capital W! .. the True Self that is One) is ever present, always here and the question of "why" is simply an attachment to things in the creation (i.e. use the term creation loosely, rather than in the Creationism vs. Evolution sense), such as the thoughts, feelings, physical belonging etc. The "why" comes from the ego and is not a part of the True Self. If you want an answer to "why are we here?" in the physical sense, this is simply a question from the ego and is answered by saying that the purpose is to become fully aware/Self Realized. Part of that awareness is to let go of the attachments that are the ego, which includes that question of "why?"
LOL! Indeed, this is a journey for us all. It would be wondeful if we could all just switch a switch and become fully aware, but the attachments we have are strong and it will take time and practice for any of us. We will of course get glimpses and, the more we practice, the easier and more frequent it will become. We can all do it if we choose.
I understand what you say, but some beliefs are that we carry forward things from previous incarnations. i.e. the concept of Karma in Buddhism. Are we really that perfect when we start this incarnation? We may be fully aware on the other hand.
Nope, that sounds spot on. You spend your life building up attachements and now you realise that you need to let go of those attachments. By doing so you start to become aware of your True Self.
The wise tell us that, in truth, there is no difference between the "higher me" (True Self) and anything else. Even the ego does not truly exist. Our awareness is what has created the creation. However, that is where I am presently at in my journey of understanding and I have yet to correlate this wisdom with person experience and practice.
On the contrary !
When you stay in this awareness, when you are enlightened, you have allready died !
With this you, I mean ego. All thoughts, attachments to memories, emotions, stuff in this world, it all goes away, and everything that appears in consiousness, being it physical stuff like that new car of yours that you were so proud of when you bought it, but also all attachments to all experiences from the past, no matter how good or how nasty they are, will die.
Nothing that is bothering you right now, will bother you again. Ever.
So, what stays ? The enourmously fullfilling living in the Now, a strange, wordless understanding of how the Universe is working, both fully aware of everything that goes on around you, the game of form, but also of your everpresent Being. Suddenly all the "problems" are gone, and it becomes something you watch yourself play with. You start to become aware of other people's ego to a level where you recognise Yourself, your Being in the other underneath their ego, and you are able to talk with that person about anything, whatever topic, and still raise consiousness in that person until you see him "lightening up".
That person will have a fond memory of your talk, and your meeting, and not understand why, only you will know.
But, even when the realisation comes, like the one you had a few weeks ago, that doesn't mean that the ego is gone yet. It's not like the light is switched on, BANG full enlightenment is here.
It's more like Ramm Dass once said, that after the first "aha" moment, you get the feeling a densely clouded sky is clearing up.
You are on your way, and you are doing very well Pan !
Can I walk alongside you for a while ?
Are we not already?
Edwin, you sound a lot like the Christian mystics who taught me when I was young, with all their talk about dying to worldly desire and living in the spirit. Not that I understood a word of what they were saying. It is tragicomical that this has been at the heart of Christianity for 1900 years, and almost no one got it. Even when people started getting ready for this kind of message, they had to travel halfway around the globe and wade in dust and tropical diseases to "get" it.
Very true, enlightenment is not reserved for eastern philosophies. Most teachers nowadays are convinced that Jesus himself was enlightened.
The best known Christian Mystic has to be Meister Eckhart ( not to be confused with Eckhart Tolle ).
There are website's dedicated to his legacy.
Meister Eckhart - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Christianity used to be a far less rule-based religion, and very open to new viewpoints until in the 6th century, a very dark period in the middle ages, the Benedictine movement became popular. Under today's terms one could say that they could be considered fundamentalists. Their doctrine's have had immense influence on Christianity throughout Europe and the world.
I dare say that Christianity in it's original form never quite recovered from it.
But, there is hope.
Seeing as Eckhart..(I love the guy)writes about the distinction of intellectually knowing about being as opposed to actually feeling it...that inner force which animates my body...I'm quite not there in sensing it.
I do short meditations as I've not mastered silence for long periods of time...I'm at about 2 minutes,at which time the ego goes berserk and I lose presence.
But when I try to feel my inner body,all I manage is a very faint sense of joy,as if some part of me knew that I'm hiding there somewhere but I've yet to manage identifying it or feeling it per se.
Hi Billyboy, pleased to meet you.
With regards to "mastering silence"...
Stop doing that !!! ( I know, strange advice, but bear with me ok ? )
What you are trying to do, is "will" your thoughts into silence, and your interpretation of silence is "no thought".
Silence in this respect should be seen in the right context.
Silence is not meant as "absence of thought".
It is something that is quite ineffable, but I will try to describe it for you.
When meditating, sometimes the meditation will go quite naturally, and after a period of time where the "ego goes berserk" as you said, your body calms down, and as a result your mind seems to naturally become less active. If you have not had this sensation yet, to put it bluntly, you will probably not be meditating the way you should.
Have you tried listening to the free meditation course yet ? Never ever in the entire course does it say that you have to try to stop thinking. It sais you have to try and watch thoughts, see them appear, and disappear again, like clouds passing by on a summer day as Michael so poetically puts it in the course. If this doesn't seem to ring a bell, I would advice you to follow the course ( what the heck, it's free so why not ) to the letter, and after that, read on here.
Back to the right meaning of the word "silence".
Silence, like I said, doesn't mean absence of thought, but it is more like that in which sounds appear ( actually it is not just sounds that appear in this silence, but we will get to that below ).
You see, all sounds appear, and disappear into silence. Sounds, and thoughts alike, appear in silence, and disappear into that again. Both sounds as well as thoughts, and even emotions as well, need a platform in which to appear.
Just like real sound needs air to transport soundwaves, "sounds" inside your head need "silence" to carry them.
Maybe it would be better to call this kind of silence "stillness" as Tolle describes it. You see, it is not just quietness, there seems to be a vibrant energy in this stillness, a buzzing stillness, as if you can feel the texture of life.
I better quit here and first of all ask you if any of this makes sense to you.
Thanks Edwin and yes it does make sense...I appreciate your answer,but please make sure to not get so wrapped up in the concept of silence that you forget about my original theme which is the inner body.
In short, stop trying.
The act of trying, The act of feeling, The sensation of joy. These are all constructs of the mind caused through your True Self becoming attached to the conscious mind (mental, emotional and physical senses). When the True Self (Aham in sanskrit) becomes attached to anything (Kara in sanskrit) this becomes Ahankara, or what is commonly referred to as the ego. (Note: Ego in this sense is not negative as in being egotistical, but is the name given to the attachment between True Self and anything - We all have this ego most of the time)
Rather than trying to attach or connect with the inner body or the sensations, simply choose to meditate and let any construct of the mind or thoughts go. It is here that you will become aware of the True Self BEing everything. This in itself is pure joy and love and is something you become (as in Being) rather than something you become aware of (as if you were seperate from).
Let go of your "trying" and you will just Be. "trying" is the mind using you, rather than you using the mind when you need to use it.
Tolle speaks about the "inner body" as an attempt to point towards presence-awareness. He too constantly bumps into this ineffability. No matter how great the sage, it is impossible to describe True Self.
So, Tolle created another concept that might appeal to some people.
But, as Giles pointed out so clearly, no concept can ever be truth.
Looking back at our conversation, I got lost in one concept, and you said something along the lines of "I am not interested in this concept, please tell me more about the concept I am interested in".
And there came Giles telling you to forget about all concepts Quite funny when you think about it like that.
Looking at your original question:
It becomes obvious that the hidden agenda of ego is to reach the goal of attaining joy. It can be a very pleasant side-effect, but sages don't have a constant feeling of joy if that is what you think. After all, being human means that we experience all emotions. Anger, sadness, joy...
The biggest difference is that for the enlightened/awakened/realised or whatever name you would give it, the Now is a timeless state, in which time appears with all it's forms and changes, emotions...
Having realised that the true Self is seperate of time and space, everything that passes is perfect within that moment. It's almost like watching a movie play of yourself, knowing that it doesn't matter wether you identify with the movie or not, it plays itself, and your true Self is the observer, not an active participant in the movie being played.
So, when anger appears, it is perfect within that moment. And when it disappears, that is also perfect.
There is no longer any need to linger on an emotion, or a mind construct like worries, or being mad at someone for something they did in the past.
When anger is there, it is there, and when it has passed, another emotion can step in.
"What's wrong with right now unless you think about it"
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