Principles of Meditation & Entrainment

Discussion in 'Meditation Chatter Box' started by Ta-tsu-wa, Jan 12, 2010.

  1. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    wow, this took some time to read for me! Well written, and surely of interest for most of meditation beginners!

    Just found an old EEG from me, where the doctor wrote something about unusual, but regular theta waves. So these theta waves (which begin with LF7) are something that naturally occure in my brain while im normaly awake, yet im still alive *gg*
     
  2. yion

    yion Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2009
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    You are my hero

    Ta-Tsu-Wa you are my hero. While there was very little new (to me) in what you wrote, it was soooo well done and I recognized right away some of the things I have been recently doing wrong. With your post I hope to get back on track. Thanks just fails to express my gratitude for all your insightful and inspiring posts, but my thanks I do offer most sincerely.

    yi
     
  3. Still Waters

    Still Waters Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    This is really good. Useful for those beginning meditation and those who are more experienced alike.

    As it is so important may I suggest that the thread is placed where it can be easily found. It would be a pity for such useful information to be eventually lost and largely forgotten about. I only stumbled across it myself by accident.

    Perhaps it could be recommended reading for newbies.

    Thank you so much for this Ta-Tsu-wa


    Chris
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2010
  4. chris063

    chris063 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2008
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Ta-Tsu-Wa, thank you for your work and effort in gathering all this valuable information together in one place.

    There was much that I knew and also much that I needed reminding of! I have always shied away from strict practices which need almost 'forced' concentration to 'make' a mediatation session work because I prefer to be flexible, sit quietly and just 'drop in' to a comfortable meditative state, but I also know people who prefer a much more extreme (well it seems that way to me!) method of chanting and physical poses as a means of meditation.

    It is very much as you say, a matter of individual preference, and also, much depends on where you are in your Life as to what method suits us best, and also, what effects we are likely to 'feel' from our meditations.

    Thank you also for clearing up the relationship between entrainment, brainwave states and meditation for me.

    Peace and Joy to you,

    Chris :):):)
     
  5. merlin

    merlin Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2009
    Messages:
    16
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Brilliant!! thanks a million :D
     
  6. Laceyatpeace

    Laceyatpeace Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    How then do I know I am in meditation?

    Okay, I am a newbie... so forgive me if this is a ridiculous question. But how will I know that I am truly in the meditation state? I have read through a few posts and begin to remember how poor I did in an honors class which started with philosophy. I was totally intrigued but felt maybe I wasn't "deep enough" to get it. I am pretty simple in my faith and understanding of God and this thing called life. But I do feel there is merit to the idea of meditation. Since I am trying to make a holistic lifestyle change, to become more at peace physically and mentally/emotionally/spiritually, I want to know how to know I am in meditation. I get that this is a state of being not necessarily an action. I understand that it is not just about relaxing. So is there a way to measure (sorry concrete thinker, I guess) how well I am doing in meditation? Are there measurable results one would see... or just an overall sense of peace in life? Hope you see what I am asking here... I promise I did read the entire posting. I am interested in doing this the right way to get the most optimal benefit.. Or to be philosophical... is "the right way" different for everyone?
     
  7. Itlandm

    Itlandm Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I learned meditation from God by simply not "hanging up" after I had finished praying. So being simple in one's faith is certainly not a drawback, quite the opposite.
     
  8. Laceyatpeace

    Laceyatpeace Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Thank you. I used to not even say Amen at the end of my prayers to keep that line open. So maybe I should retreat back to this thought!?! Just try to be in constant contact with Him.
     
  9. Midnight

    Midnight Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2010
    Messages:
    265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    All I can say is, you'll know it when it happens. Don't cling on to it, once you finish meditating, forget it ever happened and just keep moving forward with your meditation. Thinking about results may only just set you up for unnecessary anxiety. :)
     
  10. ShivaKali

    ShivaKali Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2009
    Messages:
    11
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Ta-Tsu-Wa's post details both questions.

    "Are there measurable results one would see... or just and overall sense of peace in life?" and,

    "...is 'the right way' [of meditation] different for everyone?"

    From Post #11:

    From Post #13:

    I've been over that post enough times that I lost count and I keep finding more and more useful information in it. Maybe the trick is not to just read over it but to work on absorbing the information it contains. Hope this suggestion helps.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2010
  11. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Yup, im reading most things very slow, and many sentences 2-5 times, to get its meaning. Maybe that could be done faster, and im just a bit slow *g*
     
  12. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Laceyatpeace

    ShivaKali directed you back to my original post and highlighted some of what I wrote that speaks to questions you asked. The one above though is slightly different. Maybe I can elaborate on it a little more here.

    If I am wrong, please correct me, but I believe what you want to know is, how will you recognize that you're in a state of meditation while you're actually in it, yes?

    Indeed, you won't, at least not in the beginning of your practice. Evidence of the effectiveness of your practice becomes apparent during the times you are outside of the meditative state. Those hallmarks I mentioned, such as improved health, greater sense of connectedness, etc., are all things you notice and process as effects through the mechanisms of the discriminating mind which is dormant during the time in which one is genuinely in a state of meditation. If ever you are in meditation and you think to yourself, "Hey, I'm in meditation!", rest assured you have already slipped out of the meditative state.

    Attempts at "recognition" of the meditative state are a function of the mind. If you are practicing and continually examining yourself during your practice to see if it "feels" somehow like you're in meditation, you're virtually insuring that you will not get anywhere near the state of meditation.

    When you have become proficient at entering into meditation, in time you will discover that you are fully "aware" of the state, but your awareness will not contain your habitual mental chatter. "Awareness of" meditation is a completely different animal than "thinking about" meditation. But do not expect to experience these moments of awareness in any significant degree until you've become quite familiar with the meditative state via your own experience.

    Until you reach this point of direct awareness, look for those hallmarks I suggested are the fruits of meditation at times other than when you practice. When you sit to enter meditation let all those sorts of questions and curiosities go. Don't worry about them. Don't think about them. For the duration of your practice time such considerations will only hinder your progress.

    If I was just beginning to incorporate a practice of meditation into my life I wouldn't spend much time looking for the effects of my meditation for at least a few months. It's something like the proverbial pot of water that will not boil so long as it is being watched. Let it alone and come back later and you'll suddenly discover it has begun to boil while you were otherwise occupied.

    The benefits of meditation are cumulative, and from a psychological standpoint if we are constantly scrutinizing things in search of effects it will seem to us as though the process is taking forever or even standing still. Save yourself that frustration. Commit to your practice and follow through, letting things be just as they are. In a few months when you examine your life for evidence of meditative benefits they will stand out to you plainly.

    Best wishes for your success in this new phase of your life. Use the materials Michael has provided here consistently and according to the instructions he has provided and I have no doubt you will rapidly begin making progress.
     
  13. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I'm gratified that folks are finding that information to be helpful. And you, Pan, I must admit have made dramatic progress in your life since you joined the forum. Have you by chance looked back at some of your earliest posts and compared them with those you have written recently? There is a marked difference in content and tone.

    One thing that stands out to me most plainly is in the level of your self-confidence. Initially you seemed uncertain and hesitant, whereas now you offer your thoughts and opinions from the perspective of one who has put information into practice and can speak with the authority that comes only from personal experience. Very impressive.
     
  14. GilesC

    GilesC Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2009
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    I'll second that. :rolleyes:
     
  15. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2009
    Messages:
    1,239
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Whoops, thanks guys! I felt progress in my way, and its good to get confirmed from outside that im on the right path. I feel im on the edge of my old "me", still theres a lot to drop :)

    Besides that, i took a lot from you guys onboard! :)
     
  16. Laceyatpeace

    Laceyatpeace Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Thank you Ta-tsu-wa

    You got exactly what I was asking. Thank you for understanding. You are truly gifted at helping to guide others on this new journey! Many, many thanks!!I will certainly apply those suggestions into my practice!!
     
  17. BarryWillis

    BarryWillis Member

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Just a quick note to say thank you for the effort put into Principles of Meditation & Entrainment. It is very informative and essential reading for a novice like me. It has given me a better understanding of what to expect (and NOT). I certainly thought that I was “doing it” rather than “being there”!! Thanks again.
     
  18. Coenrad Morgan

    Coenrad Morgan Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Beyond the usual replies and suspects

    Helllo Ta-tsu-wa,

    As per everyone else, thank you for the effort.

    Something you said and maybe more how it was said has been sitting sideways, its just not going down, maybe you can help.

    You mention effects some feel whilst meditating *example you used ;x-ray vision, as a need for validation as also more a short between the headphones as apposed to whats playing through them or just using the mantra method, I find this to be extremely judgmental and is most likely to kill off the likelihood of people participating as community members.

    Given that meditation leads to both structural and chemical changes in the brain as also displacement of active regions from one area to heightened activity elsewhere (as clinically observed as documented over and over again, Michael being one) isn't it likely that people, especially aspirants and those starting out could feel something, tingling, rising sensations.....and though valid are not supernatural but simply their first experience of deep and conscious relaxation and thus the effects such as pressure, tingling etc?

    Take 100mg Effexor, or Prozac or Jack Daniels all of which mimic the chemical changes in the brain as can be experienced during meditation and tell me "it's your imagination, conscious or unconscious expectation" or your in need of validation?

    I have wrestled with wanting to reply to this since it was posted, I strongly disagree for 3 primary reasons:

    • TM literature and induction lectures specifically advise one that unusual experiences are common, Buddhist literature does the same, both mentioning experiences classed from mere physical, to Clearvoyance to utterly disturbing, even terrifying but not to let them become sticking points.
    • Any change in brain chemistry will be registerd in ones body somehow, included in these is relaxation, a sense of calm, or is the statement that that is not imagined or an exception made because it is an acceptable Phenomenon ?
    • Own experience, a highly experienced monk advised me as follows when I went to him and asked if the sudden, over in a flash rising sensation was normal, "its just your mind adjusting to meditation, just let it go", a pefectly acceptable explaination which doesnt validate nor detract from the experience allowing me to simply move past it.

    I am concerned about this aspect of what you posted and that only, the rest was a stunning piece of work, but to tag peoples experiences in such a blunt/ blanket manner, in my opinion (not fact) is not conducive to community, expert-ism kills expression, smothers it, which in tern kills community interaction. NO ONE should be made out as or made to feel like a "weirdo", there is enough of that in many peoples lives as is.

    Please be so kind as to assist me in understanding this aspect of your writing, my telepathy is broken, my clairvoyance is blurred by a lack of sleep and I gave up trying to develop x-ray vision in my teens, so its down to you helping me out here, and preferably not someone channeling you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2010
  19. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    282
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Coenrad

    Let me try to address a couple of excellent points you raised and perhaps clarify what was intended.

    First, be cautious about demonizing the concept of making judgments. We exist in a relative state in which there can be no successful functioning without a constant stream of judgments and evaluations followed by corresponding actions on our part. One must be careful when applying judgments to people so that they are both accurate and useful, but make no mistake about it, we do it all the time and it is both proper and necessary.

    For example, when you get up and go to work Monday morning it is because you have judged the person you work for to be of such character that they will in fact compensate you as agreed for the work you produce. That is a judgment about one aspect of that person’s character you have made.

    On the other hand, if you are out job hunting and you receive an offer of employment from someone but your impression is that there is a high degree of probability they will attempt to take advantage of you and get you to perform work for which they are unwilling to pay, you will likely turn down that job offer and look elsewhere. Again, you have made a judgment.

    Judgments both of people and of events are unavoidable.

    What I wrote does not speak to the value or quality of a person. It speaks to the value and usefulness of particular events, namely, those which may accompany the use of entrainment and/or the practice of meditation. In particular, one phrase you singled out dealt with entrainment. In context, the full statement reads:

    “Another common misconception is that entrainment is going to force your brain into doing something beyond its native capabilities, or at least beyond what it is accustomed to doing. This mistaken belief is often the root that leads to posts on the forum that read something like, “When I meditate with Lifeflow my face gets flushed (or my hair vibrates or I develop x-ray vision, or any of the other things we so often see posted here). If I meditate without Lifeflow the face flushing doesn’t happen. Lifeflow must be causing it.”

    This statement is expressly regarding entrainment (it was not speaking about meditation) as it pertains to reported, associated phenomena. It is not directed at the value or character of any person. The reference to “x-ray vision” is the use of hyperbole; a technique commonly used in writing and speaking which employs an exaggerated statement in order to emphasize and draw out a point clearly.

    In this case, the point is that entrainment is not capable of “creating” the kinds of phenomenon reported, such as “x-ray vision”, etc, with the exceptions as noted for those who have medical conditions. It never was and it never will be, hence I wrote:

    “This is not to say that entrainment cannot produce some physical effects, particularly negative ones. It is possible to induce epileptic seizures using entrainment, especially visual entrainment that employs flashing lights. That’s why people with seizure disorders are uniformly told to consult with their health care provider before using entrainment if they have a seizure disorder or some other serious medical condition.”

    And:

    “We seize on these odd little experiences like flushing of the face or seeing spirals of color when our eyes are closed, hoping these are signs suggesting the elusive relief we’ve been after is finally within our grasp. We ask others to validate our experiences so that we can reassure ourselves we’re on the right track at last.

    All of this is entirely understandable, even somewhat predictable. Unfortunately, it quickly becomes counter-productive. Such experiences, while having a certain feeling of solidity to them, are largely the product of our desires and expectations. Did your face get flushed? One look in the mirror confirms it did. Was this caused by the entrainment? No, it was not. It was the result of what was sought after and what was expected or even hoped for.”

    There is clear acknowledgement that phenomena can and do appear, including the above mentioned face-flushing. That was never in question. The issue is, what is the true genesis of these things, and are they in any way useful towards the practice of meditation?

    And the answers are, for the most part they have their origins in expectations, and no, they are not useful towards meditation. In fact for all the reasons outlined in the post they are quite counter-productive.

    Comparing the use of pharmaceuticals that cause attendant alterations in brain chemistry to entrainment is comparing the proverbial apples to oranges. Entrainment does nothing more than foster the brain in its own native capacities. There is nothing unnatural forced upon the brain, and if there are any changes in brain chemistry as the end product of the process it is because the brain and nervous system have brought them about in a natural, wholesome fashion. The manifestations, if any, of such changes will also be quite normal and natural. They will not be of the “x-ray vision” variety since that is not a natural and normal function of the brain.

    In contrast, pharmaceuticals are not natural and indeed they do force and coerce the brain, nervous and endocrine systems into states that are not natural. They skirt all of the metabolic systems that exist within the human organism that would ordinarily govern the production and dissemination of chemicals and chemical processes, and they compel the body to produce specific compounds on command. This is not natural or normal (though for medical reasons it is obviously sometimes necessary,) and the manifestations that may arise at the end of such pharmaceutical treatments may well take on bizarre and extreme forms (i.e., of the “x-ray vision” type.) A comparison between the effects of pharmaceuticals and the effects of entrainment simply cannot be made but there is certainly a stark contrast to be seen.

    It is a sad fact that the vast majority of people who begin a practice of meditation do not stick with it. They don’t stick with it because they do not achieve the results they believe they should have achieved. I began earnest practice of meditation back in 1972 after having experimented with it on and off again for quite some years before that. Based on nearly 40 years of experience in this area I can say without hesitation that most of these unrealized expectations are not a failure of meditation but rather are the result of fixating attention on the oddball manifestations which serve only to distract and lead one away from the real benefits meditation has to offer.

    I can say with 100% certainty that listening to an entrainment track is not going to cause extreme phenomenal manifestations. You will not develop "x-ray vision" you will not levitate, you will not become able to shatter a glass from across the room by simply staring at it, and it will not solve all the world’s ills. I guarantee that, Coenrad. I will stake my life on it. Brainwave entrainment of itself does not possess that sort of potential. Anyone has the right to disagree with that thought, and if you are able to prove it incorrect I would be the first to congratulate you. And while I might welcome eating that particular bit of crow, I have no doubts at all that it will simply never happen.

    If a person uses entrainment technology properly it will enhance their efforts in many areas of their life, and in the field of meditation I think it has particularly useful applications. If used improperly, and/or with expectations (either by up front design or by Pavlovian conditioning as I wrote about,) it will ultimately not only fail to be of much assistance but will even contribute towards leading one away from real growth and into joining the ranks of those who have "been there, done that, got the t-shirt", and then left it behind as ultimately being just another dead end disappointment.

    There is in this no judgment about the value or quality of any person, but a judgment about events; events witnessed not only in my own life but in the lives of more people than I can remember over a period spanning several decades.

    Does that help clarify at all, Coenrad?
     
  20. Coenrad Morgan

    Coenrad Morgan Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2008
    Messages:
    136
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    All is well that ends well

    Ta-tsu-wa,

    Thank you for the full explanation of your intent, regarding what could possibly be perceived as derogatory statements related to physical sensations and "things that go bump in the night" that are often reported. Your full explanation of your view on this matter goes a long way towards ones understanding of your original post specific to this matter.

    Would you PLEASE consider doing something for me and possibly for others, technical stuff aside, you said in a post that conscious contact with "God" was what you meditated for, PLEASE start a thread on how YOU do that using correct Life Flow and meditation principles towards that aim. Right now, chugging down a gallon of Ayahuasca is one option, another is a .38 in the mouth, non I think are constructive although its a daily mental debate, I dont think I am alone in this. That conscious contact with "Source, Being, God..." you spoke of is ALL I ever wanted from meditation (although x-ray vision would be useful if I could teach it to teenage boys as a living - could really make a fortune)

    Most Sincerely Grateful for your effort,
    Coenrad
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2010

Share This Page