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Necessary to Focus with Lifeflow?

Discussion in 'Meditation Chatter Box' started by tykraus7, Aug 26, 2008.

  1. tykraus7

    tykraus7 Member

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    I read that since the whole point of Lifeflow is entrainment that it is not necessary to focus the mind while listening to it. The point of focusing (mantra, breathing, candle, etc) is to create the brainwaves necessary for going deeper. Doesn't Lifeflow do this automatically? Therefore, wouldn't the same benefits be acheived with just sitting or laying and listening as listening and focusing?
     
  2. Raven

    Raven Member

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    It doesn't work like that

    You're confusing brainwaves with meditation. Brainwaves do not produce meditation. Brainwave states are a by-product of meditation. However, being in a certain brainwave pattern that is associated with those produced by meditation MAY make it more efficient to slip into a state of meditation. Yes, it is like putting the cart before the horse a little. Using entrainment you're producing a "brainwave environment", so to speak, that is conducive to but not causative of meditation.

    But it is not a cause and effect relationship between brainwaves and meditation. Most people in meditation produce more Alpha waves than they would ordinarily. But you can close your eyes and you'll also produce more Alpha. Or you can get lost in a daydream and that will produce more Alpha. Or you can listen to soothing music and that will produce more Alpha. But if you do any of these things that does not mean you are in meditation. It means you are closing your eyes, daydreaming, or listening to soothing music, and nothing more.

    If you want meditation you have to practice meditation. No entrainment track, LifeFlow included, can substitute itself for the effort you need to put out in order to meditate.

    One additional point of clarification regarding your statement about "focusing", etc. If you practice the meditation technique as Michael teaches it you are not rigidly focusing on a mantra. The mantra is light, loose...it may come and it may fade and then return again. That's how the technique works. It isn't like some mantra techniques in which you have to keep that mantra fixed firmly in mind every moment. There are mantra techniques like that, but the one Michael teaches is not that way. That's one of the extra benefits to this particular technique. That loose, diffused focus on the mantra actually produces a more relaxed state of mind and, as a by product, more Alpha waves than a more rigid technique would produce.

    So, again, to answer your question, no, just laying and listening or laying with your eyes closed and listening to an entrainment track will not produce the same effects as practicing a meditation technique while listening to that same track. It may produce benefits in its own way but they will not be the same as when you are practicing meditation. If you want the benefits of meditation you have to practice meditation. There is no substitute.

    ~R~
     
  3. tykraus7

    tykraus7 Member

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    I wasn't planning on not meditating but I have Thresholds of the Mind a book by Bill Harris, the Centerpointe founder and he said all you have to do is listen to his product and it will produce the brainwaves. His claims were that it is the brainwaves that are responsible for the benefits of meditation. That going into delta brainwaves synchronizes the brain which is what is responsible for the release of fears, stress, anxiety, viewing oneself and the world as 'one'.
     
  4. Raven

    Raven Member

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    Harris is wrong

    Harris is making marketing claims, not scientific or even commons sense claims. And while he may know a great deal about marketing, his knowledge about brain function leaves something to be desired.

    When you connect someone up to an EEG for testing purposes you do not hook them up, tell them to start producing Alpha brainwaves and then use the EEG to measure whether or not they slip into meditation.

    You do exactly the opposite. You connect them to the EEG, ask them to enter a state of meditation and then you measure the resulting brainwaves. It is the brainwaves you measure with an EEG, not meditation, and you get the brainwaves to arise by entering meditation. The fact is, the meditative state preceeds the brainwaves, not the other way around. But Bill Harris isn't going to let facts get in the way of good marketing hype.

    Hemispheric synchronization is the result of the wave form (binaural, monaural, or isochronic), not the wave frequency (Alpha, Theta, Delta or Beta.) Remember we're talking about hemispheric synchronization, not entrainment. The two are not synonymous.

    As Michael rightly says, of the three wave forms used for entrainment, binaurals have the greatest synchronizing effect because that is the only one of the three that pushes the hemispheres of the brain into attempting to work in unison by giving each a slightly different tone that the brain naturally wants to resolve into a single tone. The dynamic interplay between the hemispheres that occurs as they continuously work at this irresolvable problem is what promotes synchronization. Frequency is actually irrelevent to the process.

    If you subscribe to the "something for nothing" mentality then Harris's claims will appeal to you. He says you need do nothing but listen to his products and they will do all the work of creating change in you. That is pure marketing gimmick with no basis in fact.

    You can have the greatest car on the planet but it will take you nowhere until you get in, turn on the engine and make the effort to drive it. Unless, of course, you live on Bill Harris's planet, where you don't have cars that require you to drive them, you have magic carpets and all you need do is sit on your carpet and make a wish and it'll take you where ever you want to go.

    ~R~
     
  5. tykraus7

    tykraus7 Member

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    Okay thanks for the reply and like I said I've used meditation the whole time I've had Lifeflow but I just read that today and found it interesting. I'm meditating more for the spiritual journey and inner peace anyways, the health benefits are just icing on the cake.
     
  6. Grey

    Grey Member

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    i agree

    tykraus7

    i think you are correct about spiritual advancement being the primary purpose of meditation with health benefits and such being a fringe benefit. maybe if i had major health challenges i would feel differently. and i understand what Raven means i think. "if something sounds too good to be true it probably is." that is really what he is saying.

    many entrainment sites make unrealistic claims. here is one that makes me laugh: Brainwave/Cymatic Frequency Listing scroll down their list and see what they say different brainwaves cure. .20 - .26 hertz cures dental pain. .30 - .15 cures depression. .37 - 2.15 cures drug addiction, and .28 - 2.15 cures alcohol addiction. my favorite is .95 - 10 cures whiplash.

    where did they get these numbers? no reputable sources support any of their statements. they must be made up and it makes me wonder what they are selling.
     
  7. Raven

    Raven Member

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    Meditation

    I have no doubt that if you just sit quietly, relax, and listen to LifeFlow you will derive benefits. Personally, I do that a lot. Sometimes I'm feeling lazy, kicked back in my easy chair and I don't really want to meditate, but I can put on a LifeFlow track, relax, maybe close my eyes a bit, and I know I'm being benefited by the entrainment that takes place. It's not meditation; it's something else, but it is still something worthwhile and helpful to me. I often play a LifeFlow track and use it as brown noise cover over less desirable background sounds. I find this to be soothing and I believe it helps me to be better centered, grounded and more relaxed.

    For me, as you have indicated is true for you as well, meditation is more of a spiritual practice with extra benefits of health and stress reduction. But I know that while an entrainment program might assist me in reaching a state of meditation more quickly and efficiently, all on its own it won't convey the benefits of meditation to me unless I practice meditation. To believe otherwise would be a bit like practicing basketball in order to improve my bowling game.

    But I definitely use the LifeFlow tracks for a variety of purposes. I want all the mileage out of them I can get.

    Grey, I looked at that site you posted the link to. You're right. That's hysterical. I wonder which frequency dissolves warts? And you're spot on. If something sounds too good to be true, it is. My gripe with marketers that make outrageous claims is that they often make victims out of people who have serious life problems to deal with. They prey on people who are desperate and will turn to anything as a possible solution. Rather than teaching people truly useful coping and managing skills like meditation, visualization, relaxation, stress reduction techniques, etc., and giving them quality tools like entrainment as an adjunct to these skills, instead they make ludicrous claims for what their products will do and charge these poor folks a fortune for them. It makes you wonder how some of these marketers can sleep at night. I guess if you have the conscience of a reptile you sleep just fine.

    ~R~
     
  8. tykraus7

    tykraus7 Member

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    It's really too bad that Harris is like that because in his book he claims that he was once like many of the people he's trying to help and that Holosync saved him. If that were true I can't see him ripping people off as badly as Holosync does.
     
  9. Grey

    Grey Member

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    Bill Harris

    tykraus7, Raven,

    Bill Harris has done a lot to bring the subject of brainwave entrainment to the attention of the general public. he deserves credit for that. even if his business practices are not up to the standards we would like them to be, he has still made some valuable contributions. and many people feel his products have helped them so good has come from his work even if the man is not perfect. who among us is?
     
  10. tykraus7

    tykraus7 Member

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    Today while meditating I was trying various focusing techniques. I started with breathing, then moved to mantra then I just focused on the music of Lifeflow 10. I was wondering if this would be the same as focusing on something else and would also aid in meditating? It seemed much easier to let go of thoughts while focusing on the sounds of Lifeflow than while breathing or using mantra. Actually while using mantra I thought the most and found myself starting to feel very anxious and frustrated.

    Is focusing on the sounds of lifeflow an adequate or okay means of meditating?
     
  11. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Whatever works best for you !

    Whatever you feel most comfortable with.

    Please note:
    Meditation for most people is considered "most successfull" when the mind is quiet.
    Instead, meditation is always successfull !

    When the mind is very busy with thoughts, you might feel frustrated because of this, but the thoughts in your mind are a valuable part of meditation, not something that should be worked out as soon as possible.
    It is a sign that your mind is unwinding layer after layer.

    In time, the layers will have been worked out to a point where your mind becomes calm and still, but this is not a matter of skill, it is a matter of time needed for a healing process.

    The only thing you need to program yourself to do is to NOT FOCUS on the thoughts. This IS a matter of skill. The more you practice to not pay attention to the thoughts ( and not focusing on it as soon as it comes along ), the better you will get at it. In time your mind becomes calm as you let the thoughts gently drift by without getting cought up by them. Important is that this should not cost you any effort. Your irritation is a strong indicator that you are straining yourself. It should work calmly.
    All you have to do is realise that you have been caught up in a daydream, gently let it drift away as you return to your mantra or listen to the music. After a while you will have drifted away again ( as we all do ) and after realising that, you again gently let it go and return to your music/mantra. In time your mind will learn that getting cought up in daydreams are not wanted and it will go away BY ITSELF ! you cannot force this, just let it happen in time. Don't set goals, like: I should be able to do this by now, or in a week, or in a month... Meditation is the goal, just sitting and doing what I just described.

    I hope I am making sense to you, I cannot explain this more clearly.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2008
  12. tykraus7

    tykraus7 Member

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    That actually made a lot more sense to me than anything I've been told so far. I've been so worried about having the thoughts that it has done the opposite for me of what it is intended. I will now just try to let them flow by without acknowledging them.
     
  13. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Glad I was able to help :)

    I was in the same situation you were when I just started, so that's why I was albe to recognise the problem. I have been meditating since about a year now, and I still feel I am learning new things every day, and re-discovering things I have forgotten.

    Even after a year my mind is not totally calm during meditation, so I guess there are still layers to be peeled away. As we live, we make new layers as we go along too I guess.

    Oh, btw, if you should notice that you have a recurring thought or feeling or memory that interferes with your meditation, try The Power of Letting Go - A Sample of How the Sedona Method Works bottom page.
    It is a free sample of how the Sedona method works, and it has done wonders for my peace of mind.
    Also EFT Provides Impressive Health and Emotional Freedom--New Discovery Often Works Where Nothing Else The EFT technique can do wonders here. You can download the guide from their website for personal use.

    That is all the help I can give you and all I know about.

    I wish you wonderfull meditation sessions and a calm life ! :)
     
  14. tykraus7

    tykraus7 Member

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    Yeah I just have a lot going on in my life right now with just turning 21 and being in college and a lot of other stuff. So I'm not surprised that my mind is cluttered with thoughts and feelings. I'll just accept these as part of my journey.
     
  15. Ras

    Ras Member

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    as always, very informative posts Raven.

    Really good to have someone around who truely sounds like he knows what he is talking about regarding the more techinal details of brainwave states ;)
     
  16. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    I agree, I am almost getting used to seeing these kind of posts from Raven, but it seems to me they take a lot of time to make so I guess we could express our gratitude for this a bit more. After all, I am slowly starting to become an expert on brainwave entrainment thanks to all the informative posts Raven makes ;) He is the real expert of course !

    Thanx m8 !
     

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