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Meditating on the Self

Discussion in 'Meditation Chatter Box' started by GilesC, May 31, 2011.

  1. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Ramai, I have seen several posts done by you that seem to be important or significant to you, and in their own right they are beautiful poetry, but as far as I can tell, completely off-topic.

    Or I could be missing the point, so could you please elaborate ?
     
  2. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    And thank you too Bryan. It is questions that allow me to revisit my own understanding and confirm to myself what I know. I think we perhaps agree more than we realise, we just have yet to find the common terminology. ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  3. Bryan555

    Bryan555 Member

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    Giles, one last thing occurs to me on this topic. What you've been describing are essentially experiences of "cosmic consciousness", or samadhi. These are fairly common among those who practice spiritual disciplines. (OK, not that common. I don't mean to belittle it in any way. Still...)

    I don't think the experience of samadhi says anything particular about the "Self" -- except that the self (both small S, and large) is capable of experiencing samadhi.

    Again, it's not a garden-variety experience. But it isn't so rare. Advanced yogis sometimes give their students a "taste" of cosmic consciousness, as a motivation tool, to whet their appetite for spiritual discipline. Sometimes a little tap on the student's chest, or heart...and a few seconds of samadhi unfold.

    It's a wonderful experience. Dualities dissolve, there is the deep sensation of "absolute union". But what does it actually tell us?

    It certainly says the Self can experience samadhi. But it doesn't set the limits of the Self. Nor, indeed, does it tell us whether the Self actually has any limits.

    So, can the self observe itself? It can certainly try...
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2011
  4. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Gidday, the experiences I have had have lasted for up to a few days. They have profoundly affected my understanding. I don’t normally even mention them, because it isn’t what most people want to hear. I do mention them here because people say they are sincere in wanting God realisation. Yet who here really wants to hear that the only reason a brain wave frequency has any effect is because of delusion, because rather than realise the truth, deluded individuality, separation says ‘I am not sure, I have no power, I need help’.
    God doesn’t need anything, I agree, but God loves creating and experiencing, so here we are. You may disagree, in which case explain creation, the source and reason. It just is, is the usual ‘book reply’. The fact that God needs nothing doesn’t mean that God is incapable. God doesn’t need to create, or meditate on God, but God easily can to an unlimited capacity, even far beyond human experience, that notion, and really does enjoy the experience. Hence terms like ‘indescribable bliss’, Samadhi, Rapture, etc.
    I have repeatedly told you how to meditate on yourself Giles. First and foremost, is practise consistency. Be Oneness, realise the consistency of Oneness. So, once again, God is Truth, Oneness. Buddha said, ‘don’t harm’, thought ‘don’t harm’, and was and practised ‘don’t harm’ at all times, even in form. Truly realised. Jesus said, ‘don’t kill’, thought ‘don’t kill’, and was and practised ‘don’t kill at all times, even in form. Truly realised. Not, don’t kill or harm... except when the killing or harm is justified, such as in the name of God by the wise ones, who know that God says it’s ok. That’s the unrealised, separated state of delusion, which grows disastrously if left unchecked.
    Mind Movies has the top rung in the LOA forum. It is a part of the website, and is promoted there. Unless I, and everyone else is seeing things. One mouse click will thrust you into a world of ridiculous spam and deceit, to be polite. Again I can 100% confidently say so, because it’s true, it’s what Mind Movies do. Not me, them, I’m merely telling the truth. Yet, there is another totally inconsistent section dedicated to unapologetically and forcefully asserting and broadcasting, ZERO TOLERANCE OF SPAM. Again I am 100% confident that that is what is being done, If I am mistaken, or deceiving, show where.
    Are you actually serious, you are Oneness, so, ‘Though shall not lie and deceive, and endlessly spam, unless we deem that it leads to God’? History hears that line of thought a lot. The inquisition. Focus on your Truth.
    I don’t, or haven’t asked for your guidance or explanation . You asked for and as you point out expected mine, why play that game when you don’t Truthfully want it. Truth is consistent.
     
  5. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Hi Uplift,

    I asked for the MindMovies link to be removed when you said you could not unsubscribe from them. The last thing I want is for people to be pestered with spam. I will chase up this request with support.

    As I usually don't get involved in what I term "heavy threads" ;) can I ask you a question please? Are you speaking with passion or anger? I just sense something strongly in a number of your posts and because they are threads which I don't understand or choose not to get involved in, I just feel you're angry. I tend to keep things simple - but appreciate some in depth threads and appreciate how much others enjoy them. I'm not judging - simply observing and asking :)

    peace and joy to you all :) :) :)

    P.S. The support team did say they would have the mindmovies thread removed and I will chase it up
     
  6. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Thanks for that Bryan, that's an interesting interception to the discussion and something I hadn't considered.

    I've heard of Samadhi's many times, but haven't studied them or gained any real understanding of what it means, so I looked up some definitions...

    From wiki (I know it's not the most reliable, but there seems to be little contention about what's described on their "discussion" tab)...

    This still sounds as though there is a focus/concentration and some limitation on some percieved object so, whilst becoming one with the object, that doesn't seem to fit my experiences, unless we were to say that the object was everything/universal. The way it's described it seems as though it's somehow bringing the focus inwards rather than just letting go. As for the "concentrated though the person remains conscious", for me, it's more of a complete awareness without concentration. The word "conscious" just seems to be to closely tied to those things of the mind such as thoughts, whereas I see it more of just BEing without limits, with no movement, time, emotions or anything. It's only when the mind attaches and brings the focus back that this changes.

    Another definition...

    This sounds more like it, as certainly the state is destroyed by the mind dragging me out of it, yet the description of no mind being a state of mind is not what I'm aware of when I'm in the state. The mind doesn't disappear, and I'm sort of still aware of it (difficult to explain in words), but it's just a part of everything and generally isn't solely something I'm attached to as if I'm seperate. Also, when I'm not in that state, the "ignorance about the nature of one's self" doesn't consume me, as I'm still aware of the awareness always being there (just sometimes the mind covers it, like it does with any of us :rolleyes: ).

    So, is it samadhi's that I experience? I'm not sure, it not a model of understanding I'm familiar enough with to relate to in detail. Sounds promising, but I'd need to read a little more on it to get a better understanding.

    Thanks for highlighting it.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  7. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Uplift,

    Sounds very much as though you are referring to what I call the practice of BEing present. Just using different terminology; being aware of our awareness at all times. :cool:

    As for explaining creation, the source and reason, I think that's a matter of beliefs (certainly in that terminology) and perhaps better suited to a seperate thread in it's own right. It would certainly make an interesting topic of discussion.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  8. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Hi Polly, good to see you on this thread...

    Not sure it's really that "heavy", but that could depend on your interpretation. The original question was really to just get some understanding and views on the topic of whether it was possible to meditate on the "Self" and whether I was misunderstanding what was being suggested to me (or whether the suggestion itself was through misunderstanding, as another option).

    I guess it comes down to how you perceive the Self or whatever you want to call it, and what you consider the state of meditation to actually be.

    Would certainly be interested in your views as your words are always valuable on these forums. :)

    Thanks also, for trying to sort out Uplift's Mind Movies issue. Hopefully that will satisfy to some extent and allow us to stay on track in the discussion(s).

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  9. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    I don’t know Mind Movies or practice LOA so choose not to visit that section. Regarding the ad’s that proliferate most sites (not only this one). With my browser and a simple add-on that I can select the flash-ad and block it. Then the forum or site is just how I like it.Ad free, just content...

    Simple :);)
     
  10. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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  11. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Hi Polly,

    I'm sure that it was mentioned to me a couple of times on these forums though I get involved in so many conversations here (and other forums) that I lose track of who. I've got a feeling that Uplift may have been one of the suggestions to do it, so was glad to get a reply, but not sure I got the answer, if you know what I mean. :)

    This is the main place I talk about meditation, so it's mainly been on here, though I've heard it said to other people in other discussions elsewhere, and yes, it will be people who meditate themselves as far as I know.

    After all this discussion, I'm still of the knowledge that to "mediate on" something requires an object for it to be "on", but the "Self" as I know it, isn't an object... in fact nomatter how much one tries (as most of us know), putting the "Self" into words is an impossible task. We can only use analogies, or things that try and point towards it (a bit like the methods of the Headless Way), but we can't actually describe the Self as the Self is all the words and more, yet somehow it is no-thing. (see, I just can't describe it hehe!)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  12. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Gidday. Am I angry Pollyanna? No, but if you prefer to see my pointing out a glaring contradiction to a group of people wanting to be more in tune with their Truth, whilst offering the same to others as anger, that’s up to you. Am I passionate about my Truth, about God, about children, their future and the example set for them, of course, or why bother. Are you? If I didn’t think so, I wouldn’t even post.

    You think I wanted Mind Movies booted out. Thats not true, there is no where that I have said that. The Truth is, I wish they would step up to the plate, and honour what they say. Oneness. I wish they would say our product is real, look we made a movie about not having to stoop to deception to sell it and do all the things we claim and its all come true. I honestly wish they were still a ‘sticky’, except, actually doing what they claim, instead of them fleeing into a ridiculous, faithless world of deception. The same applies to Michael. I wish he would demonstrate all the benefits of meditation and create a system of marketing based on up front honesty and Oneness. Giles explanation of those tactics being ok because that’s what works is very limited. Self is unlimited.

    Giles, really? You really aren’t sure if it was me that suggested that you focus/meditate on yourself? My name just vaguely popped into your head? But you aren’t sure? Please. Giles, you either want your Truth, Self awareness, whatever you want to call it or you don’t. Every infinitesimal instant it’s a choice. Truth, Oneness or not. Oneness is just that, consistent Oneness. The lack of consistency can easily be addressed.

    Jesus and Buddha, and others did put the Self into words and form. That’s what they are. You can’t, they can and did. You can’t do miracles. Some can. You can't conceive in the slightest how you will heal a blind person, make an object instantly appear, disappear, make a cosmos, a galaxy, life, etc, etc. Those that can plainly state why, because they are focused on their Truth, whilst those that can’t are focused on everything but Truth. Even though as you say, you are Self, your focus is that you are not. When it isn’t it will be easy to see that although a human thinks, 'I need a match, or some atoms to make a match, some paper, someone to strike the match, etc, etc, etc', God just thinks fire. A human must make up the steps, and culture dictates what the steps are. One culture see’s an egg was thrown into the sky and the sun formed. We laugh at the perceived ignorance and explain that it wasn’t, it was a big bang that just happened? God can easily focus on God, so we have the Spiritual examples of that, even in form. A human focus will never see that focusing on God is possible.

    Being present is just being present. A murderer can be fully in the present when slitting someone’s throat. Is that a guarantee that they are focused, meditating on their Self? Anything but. If they were there would be no murder. Enlightened people have made it clear to us, we have a choice, to focus on Truth, God, or focus elsewhere. You can’t fool yourself.

    Are you saying there’s no need for site moderation Karmoh?
     
  13. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hello Uplift,

    I’m afraid I’m still confused about what you’ve said regarding meditating on the self :eek:, but it might help if you could briefly answer my following question.

    If I was to try to meditate on the self for 5 minutes today, what are the simple steps I would need to follow?

    All I’m after is the basic steps to give me an idea rather than the big in-depth ‘full monty’ version – “a dummies guide to meditating on the self” so to speak :D.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011
  14. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    I think the fact you complained that these forums were promoting the mind movies site which apparently sends out spam, whilst the forums have a no-spam policy, implied that you felt it should be removed. That's the way I read it anyway.

    Yes. I have entered discussion on many threads both here and on other forums, and without going back through all those discussions and re-reading them all, I can only rely on my mere memory as to where I heard it asked of me. I vaguely recall that you did suggest it to me, but I was not going to state that you DID, as I couldn't be sure. There's no need to attack me for the fact that I can't recall every word of every conversation I've been involved in. :eek:

    Thanks for showing me that you obviously know more about me than I do. I feel that your words are uncalled for, unjustified and quite frankly, unkind. I asked a simple question with this thread, and you seem to have done nothing but be picky and pedantic and expecting of everyone to understand what you are saying. You may believe your answers are clear, and I'm sure they are to you, but others of us are clearly struggling to understand. I've been patient in asking for clarification but you just come back with more confusing answers.

    You said that you could see that focusing on God is possible, so, you are not human? :confused:

    No they can't. If they were truly present, then they wouldn't have a need to murder. The need comes from emotions and not-being present. Emotions, fears etc. do not exist in the present moment, they are merely based on things in the past projected to the future.

    Thanks for your response, that has certainly enlightened me in a certain sense.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  15. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Paul,

    That's exactly what my initial question was really. Just HOW can we meditate on the Self?

    I don't think we'll get an answer to it.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  16. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Hi Giles,

    as you know, everyone has opinions and so many people are greatful for the help and advice given here. Focusing on a mantra as a vehicle to reach the meditative state, whilst playing LifeFlow has brought me many amazing results and continues to do so, therefore for me, I'm not going to change anything that's working so well.

    Whenever I'm interested in learning something new, I always look for someone who has succeeded at what I want to learn. If someone were to suggest I meditate on my self, I would be wanting to know and see for myself, the qualities they were displaying and the benefits they were enjoying.

    I probably thought initially that if they practised meditation, they might be suggesting that you focus on various parts of the body.

    As for trying to describe the self I wouldn't even begin to try - everyone may run from the community :)

    I wish you much peace and joy :) :) :)
     
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Maybe it will help the discussion if I give my "definition" of the Self.
    We could be talking about totally different things, who knows...

    Self as I have seen it, is the first condition for our existence. It is what is looking, observing all phenomena of the physical world, including our bodies, thoughts and emotions, but also the table in front of you, your car.

    It is that in which everything appears.

    No thought, word or sentence can describe it, as words and thoughts are part of the physical world, part of the phenomena that appear in Self.

    Self is without shape, size or colour, it has no substance, it is neither here nor there but everywhere, it is not limited by the "skin prison" we think ourselves to be. It is infinate.

    It is what remains when during meditation thoughts and emotions fall away, it is even prior to consciousness, as even consciousness appears in it.

    Everything is Self, individable as everything that appears in Self, has to be of it.
    The saying that Self can't see itself like an eye can't see itself is both because Self has no properties, but also because when you would so to speak peel away the layers of existence, the world, your body, your thoughts and emotions, Self is beyond the last layer. There is no extra layer beyond it, it is the real You, and every layer that appears thus has to be both appearing in you, and be of you.
    Self is everything, and can only see itself if made into an object appearing in Self, and thus can only be part of Self, not Self itself, if you get my drift :D

    My truth is not in these words, but the words point towards it. I am also convinced that those who believe otherwise will find many things in this post a lot of rubbish. I would appreciate it if you would just give my your point of view then, and I will have peace with that. I will not respond to critisism, even if it is clevery disguised ;)
     
  18. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hi Giles,

    I appreciate you initially posed the question but I thought framing it like I did wouldn’t advertise any alternative discussion so that Uplift could focus on explaining in simple, step by step ways (or through the use of a simple example) how to meditate on the self. (Sorry about the italics Uplift, just pulling your leg ;):D).


    It’ll be interesting to see if it does or doesn’t appear, it seems to me Uplift is constantly going down the road of repeatedly trying to justify his standpoint rather than explaining the method through which meditating on the self is achieved. I’m not sure the “dummies guide” will materialise, but hey, I’ve been wrong more times then I care to remember! :eek:

    Unless the criticism comes from a respected source it’s just a harmless poodle gnashing its teeth.

    [​IMG]

    If it’s from a respected source then no doubt it’ll be delivered through polite discussion as constructive feedback :)

    Paul
     
  19. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Wholely and completely agree with all of that.

    :)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  20. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    @ Mr. Monkeypoodle: Hehehe I will always answer questions, even from semi-polite poodles like yourself :D

    @Giles: Maybe you recall my post on your Facebook bulletin board a few months ago ?
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2011

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