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Meditating on the Self

Discussion in 'Meditation Chatter Box' started by GilesC, May 31, 2011.

  1. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Hi guys and gals,

    This is unusual for me, starting a thread, as I'm usually on the replying end... :D

    Anyway...

    It has been suggested to me, on more than one occasion, that I should try meditating on the Self (usually in reply to me by someone who doesn't seem to agree with what I've said, though I'm sure it's just a language/terminology barrier ;)).

    I've been contemplating this for a while and still cannot get what is actually meant by "meditating on the Self", so thought I'd ask in a seperate thread so as not to take other threads off-topic.

    To me, the "Self" is that unchanging observer that observes the thoughts and everything. It's not something that can be observed (that would be like an eyeball looking at itself) or that has shape, colour, sound or any tangible physical attributes of any kind. It's just a concept or a label to desribe that which is ME (the real ME, not just this body, mind, thoughts etc. I'm attached to).

    So, saying to "meditate on" something, to me, implies that you need to put your focus on it, but being unobservable, the Self is not something that can be meditated "on". When I meditate, typically I meditate on my mantra, as that is the tool that is just a part of the practice to get me to the meditative state... to BE my Self. I just can't see how it would be possible to meditate On the Self, unless I were to create a false concept in the mind for it first (which seems pointless).

    Or, is that the point? Is it that, by seeking to meditate on the Self, we turn inwards or outwards or whatever and whichever way you like, to just BE connected with everything. To me though, the "seeking" part of that would require effort and focus, which is then where the mantra (or whatever tool we choose to use) comes in to assist us.

    I'm not sure that it is actually possible to simply meditate On the Self. All I can do is BE the Self.

    What are your thoughts on this?

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  2. TJH

    TJH Member

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    I agree Giles. The point of meditation is to lose the false self and gain the true self. I don't think you can do that by focusing on self. If you stay with your mantra you can accomplish that.
     
  3. Bryan555

    Bryan555 Member

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    Giles, I think it's very hard for us to communicate about this question. First, because none of us can actually go inside anyone else's meditation, and experience it, first-hand. And, secondly, because our terminology and concepts are not terribly well-defined.

    In my own terms, for instance, my meditation has been "focused on the Self" from the first day. I was taught to turn my attention inward, to the "third eye" area, and keep gently pulling it back there...when it inevitably tried to stray elsewhere.

    Over time, I have begun to think of this process as "knocking on Heaven's Door", so to speak. My focus is on a place -- so it seems to me -- where my small "self" is connected to a much larger reality. That reality is either a larger "Self" or, more probably, a point at which we all connect to each other, connect to Life, capital-L.

    I don't think that exactly answers your question, Giles. In a nutshell, I don't see the "Self" as purely an observer. It certainly CAN observe my life. But I believe it has a much deeper and larger function: the "Self" is the BIG me, which connects the "little me" to the Universe, and to everyone in it.

    And I do think we can meditate on that. In fact, I know so.
     
  4. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Gidday Giles, I think that one issue is being limited by what we, as people in a Western society, think we know about the mind, which is next to nothing. Savants display inexplicable abilities. As anyone who has worked with people with mental disabilities can attest to, it’s most often a guess at best what happens and why. But, that’s even a minor issue.

    I think the real issue is assigning things to your Self, such as an eyeball not being able to look at an eyeball, dictating what God, or Self, or Spirit, Oneness, whatever you call it, can and can’t do. Yet, we also often proclaim the unlimited ability of Self. For instance, at risk of being never taken seriously again (maybe never was anyway) or being considered full of it, when this experience thing happened to me, I experienced and realised that it is possible to understand, hear, process or whatever, an unlimited amount of conversations at once. That was one of the things that happened. Yet, that wasn’t very important at that moment, because all it did was highlight Beingness as being the cause and reality of that, along with anything. So, I have no doubt that a truly, continually enlightened person, or being could think many things simultaneously with ease, whilst simultaneously, easily focusing on and experiencing Self.

    But, the mental limit, the conditioning is the filter. Instantly we might ‘think’,
    ‘How can that be’... hence, ‘ye of little faith’.
    From a simple perspective, if we are really serious about wanting Enlightenment, we would cover all bases. So we talk a lot about LOA being supposedly a ‘Law’. What you focus on, you become, so we say. Wait a minute, except if you focus on Self? Law? Too hard for God? White man speak with fork tongue (again)! It’s become a bit of a habit in our culture. Now that we terrorised the world (no we didn’t we were swashbuckling adventurers and pioneers) and stole many homes, we abhor terrorism? Treaties? ‘Love your neighbour, (see God everywhere)’ unless you can make a profit, ‘thou shall not kill’, except in the name of God, etc, etc, etc. We hate spam, unless it’s one we like?
    Picture this, Pearly Gates, enter God... 'hey you, what about that mess back there on Mother earth, what gives?'
    ‘Errr, hey God, it wasn’t us, it’s those stinking feral cats and stuff running amock. You try killing them! Anyway, we had to address the deficit, and profitability would have suffered... give me a break, I meditated every day!' (Hey, I think I fooled him, looks like he’s buying it!)

    Whilst you may think that’s just rambling, please correct me if I’ve fibbed. Our focus, our One pointedness, Truth, is nothing like a Buddha or Jesus, Ammachi, the children of Medjagorie, etc. We just want the Enlightenment, the experience, whilst we focus on everything but it. Like an Ab King Pro aficionado wanting the abs of world champion gymnast, just without all that stinking ###!!!, ***### exercise, and no, for the thousandth time, we don’t eat too much, it’s a hormone thing... wait a minute, here’s a program that says you can eat anything and eat all you like, its proven to work too, and check the abs on those models, it’s all they’ve ever done, just 30 secs a week, we want it!

    But anyway, how can God, continually, totally, infinitely, omnisciently, unlimitedly focus on, and realise God, its impossible, not to mention boring.

    Did you read that book about the unlimited Self, now there’s a goal worth pursuing... wait you don’t even have to pursue it, because we are wise, we know we are it... except when... see above.

    I agree with Bryan. That would have been quicker! (at least I got out of focusing on my Meditation!)
     
  5. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Gidday Giles, I think that one issue is being limited by what we, as people in a Western society, think we know about the mind, which is next to nothing. Savants display inexplicable abilities. As anyone who has worked with people with mental disabilities can attest to, it’s most often a guess at best what happens and why. But, that’s even a minor issue.

    I think the real issue is assigning things to your Self, such as an eyeball not being able to look at an eyeball, dictating what God, or Self, or Spirit, Oneness, whatever you call it, can and can’t do. Yet, we also often proclaim the unlimited ability of Self. For instance, at risk of being never taken seriously again (maybe never was anyway) or being considered full of it, when this experience thing happened to me, I experienced and realised that it is possible to understand, hear, process or whatever, an unlimited amount of conversations at once. That was one of the things that happened. Yet, that wasn’t very important at that moment, because all it did was highlight Beingness as being the cause and reality of that, along with anything. So, I have no doubt that a truly, continually enlightened person, or being could think many things simultaneously with ease, whilst simultaneously, easily focusing on and experiencing Self.

    But, the mental limit, the conditioning is the filter. Instantly we might ‘think’,
    ‘How can that be’... hence, ‘ye of little faith’.
    From a simple perspective, if we are really serious about wanting Enlightenment, we would cover all bases. So we talk a lot about LOA being supposedly a ‘Law’. What you focus on, you become, so we say. Wait a minute, except if you focus on Self? Law? Too hard for God? White man speak with fork tongue (again)! It’s become a bit of a habit in our culture. Now that we terrorised the world (no we didn’t we were swashbuckling adventurers and pioneers) and stole many homes, we abhor terrorism? Treaties? ‘Love your neighbour, (see God everywhere)’ unless you can make a profit, ‘thou shall not kill’, except in the name of God, etc, etc, etc. We hate spam, unless it’s one we like?
    Picture this, Pearly Gates, enter God... 'hey you, what about that mess back there on Mother earth, what gives?'
    ‘Errr, hey God, it wasn’t us, it’s those stinking feral cats and stuff running amock. You try killing them! Anyway, we had to address the deficit, and profitability would have suffered... give me a break, I meditated every day!' (Hey, I think I fooled him, looks like he’s buying it!)

    Whilst you may think that’s just rambling, please correct me if I’ve fibbed. Our focus, our One pointedness, Truth, is nothing like a Buddha or Jesus, Ammachi, the children of Medjagorie, etc. We just want the Enlightenment, the experience, whilst we focus on everything but it. Like an Ab King Pro aficionado wanting the abs of world champion gymnast, just without all that stinking ###!!!, ***### exercise, and no, for the thousandth time, we don’t eat too much, it’s a hormone thing... wait a minute, here’s a program that says you can eat anything and eat all you like, its proven to work too, and check the abs on those models, it’s all they’ve ever done, just 30 secs a week, we want it!

    But anyway, how can God, continually, totally, infinitely, omnisciently, unlimitedly focus on, and realise God, its impossible, not to mention boring.

    Did you read that book about the unlimited Self, now there’s a goal worth pursuing... wait you don’t even have to pursue it, because we are wise, we know we are it... except when... see above.

    I agree with Bryan. That would have been quicker! (at least I got out of focusing on my Meditation!)
     
  6. Hazelkay

    Hazelkay Member

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    self self self

    I usually would rather do than discuss, but I seem to be drawn in:eek:

    I wonder where this self is that we could meditate on?

    The body and everything in this material existence actually has no materiality. There is just combustion and vibration, whatever is focussed on is already gone. Thoughts are just passing energy, nothing stays the same, even for a microsecond.

    This shimmering energy can be experienced, but generally we function in the world with the illusion of solid materiality and we have to deal with it as such, unless we retire to a mountaintop and just experience.

    I have trouble with a concept of 'big self' and this 'big self' being connected - the image for me is still one of separate (though somehow 'spiritual'!) entities joining up.

    For me, the experience is 'not self' rather than 'big self'. 'Big self' seems to be still clinging to this separate identity albeit universally connected.

    Well, I had a go - hope someone understands what I'm trying to say!:rolleyes:
    peace and joy
     
  7. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    I guess thats a believe problem. I for myself, pray every day a few times. I go inside myself, and make a connection to that higher sorce within me. Thats the self for me, and you wouldnt believe what these prayers create in my life. Therefore, for me, i can meditate on the self. In your case, its different because you believe something different.

    Isnt everything we perceive just an image of the truth? I guess by concentrating even on the menal picture, we get sooner or later to the truth behind it.
     
  8. olmate

    olmate Member

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    Hi Giles,

    It may be just a way of practicing. For example, I have tried a practice that seeks to start on the physical body and then incrementally expand that awareness to infinity, eternity and deep time past. Perhaps to use a scientific analogy - from the point zero (big bang) to a (presumably) ever expanding universe. A similar context may also be to use love as the vehicle - love myself, love my family, love my neighbour, etc., etc.

    So in this sense, it is just an alternative to the use of the mantra. Interestingly though, in the path I have chosen, the mantra represents a release into absolute "poverty" as the means of entering stillness and silence. But always as you say as a tool to reach that place.

    Not sure if this makes sense...

    Nothing but the best...

    Olmate
     
  9. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Hi Giles,

    This is an interesting query, with many twists and turns

    The crux of the term “meditate on the self” from a personal point of view is an inquiry.
    Who Am I?
    When you go looking for the truth within “the self” you will only find nothing or the “no self”

    This “no self” is liberation

    Liberation has no point of reference. It has no center. This is why it can love fully, deeply, and freely all that is. No self simply watches. It notices. It sees all It realises that it is not any particular point of reference within its field of awareness. It is that which is looking at all.

    If you can see this as the truth then meditation and seeking stops

    Peace :)
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2011
  10. Michael David

    Michael David Member

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    For me as Karmoh wrote Self is a meditation on Who am I? That is the process itself, the evolving depth of insight into Who am I? As a process or as a personal experience rather than a word description of some unknown and indescribable conceptual end point.

    In addition to the experience of the meditation on Who am I? A second experience might be a meditation on What am I? Or even Where am I?

    At some point you may find yourself up against a seemingly impenetrable wall. You have gone as far as you can go with the will.

    Just sit and wait. Just maybe the wall will disolve.

    Michael:)
     
  11. Bryan555

    Bryan555 Member

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    Panthau wrote: "I guess thats a belief problem. I for myself, pray every day a few times. I go inside myself, and make a connection to that higher source within me. Thats the self for me..."

    Yeah, Panthau, I'm the same. Quite odd that this entire discussion unfolded without a single mention of the "soul". I guess that's because we're all treading lightly about each other's beliefs. But, still, a forum of meditators, talking about focusing on the Self...and nobody mentions the soul?

    Two quick points: I started off thinking I was a physical being. Then figured I was a physical being with a spiritual side. Now I think of myself as a spiritual being, with a physical side. That has changed the whole ballgame for me. And it pretty much dictates my attitude towards meditation.

    Second, Giles, might it be a dead-end to think of your "Self" as an "observer"...and therefore somehow, itself, unobservable? I mean, at some point you just have to ask who that "observer" is. Don't you?

    That's enough from me. As you always say..."hugs"
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2011
  12. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Perhaps it's also a matter of words.

    Instead of saying "meditate on the Self" we could say "meditate on Beingness" which in my experience is the most direct pointer towards the Self.
    Even tho I agree that Self can't see its Self, we certainly can experience it.
    You first come across this beingness in meditation when thought and emotions become less prominent, and that which is left can only be the real You.
    The vast feeling of being, of understanding that you are timeless, thus can observe time, without form so that any form can be created from it, that deep love... You certainly can focus on that. And, even tho this is a practice, practice makes perfect, your understanding of who you are and your feeling of beingness might become a bigger part of you outside of meditation as well.
    I guess that is the difference between knowing of Oneness, and living it.

    It feels like rationalizing something that is too beautiful to touch, so I am going to quit my rant now.
     
  13. Bryan555

    Bryan555 Member

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    You lured me back into the discussion, Edwin. I'm not sure why so many of us jump to the quick conclusion that "the self can't see its Self".

    Our physical "self" examines itself all the time. No problem. So why should we assume that our higher, spiritual "Self" doesn't have that same ability? That's an odd, illogical leap, for me.

    I mean, if there's a God, certainly HE knows that He is God, and can experience that reality....wouldn't you think?
     
  14. Leonid

    Leonid Member

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    I like the scientific approaches.

    All we see and feel in the material world is the reflection of our own desires. Desire creates this wold, inanimate objects have only the will to stay as they are, plan's desire give them the ability to grow and change shape but they totally depended on the their environment, animals can work as individuals and act against their environment.

    The man have all things that have others but also can pros-pone his desire and observe his own animate, plant and animal desires.

    In our way to meditative state we slowly reduce the use of our active desires, in all three categories and state with the most subtle.

    I guess that in meditative state we actually in inanimate desire, want only to stay in pure awareness and to me is seems that this what you call a "self".

    Don't think you can meditate on the self, because it's what you using to be a aware, to be in meditative state.

    Who is using? more subtle desire, in recursive way, until full equivalence with the nature. I'm guessing here, but in this state you shouldn't feel anything :)

    Kinds Regards,
    Leonid
     
  15. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Thanks everyone for your replies so far. There's so many, I'll reply to you all in one post....

    @TJH: Thanks, that's a nice simple answer, I one which, to me, sums it up nicely.

    @Bryan: I'll reply to yours toward the end of this as you have made several replies...

    @Uplift: I was certainly expecting your reply. ;) I'm not sure this question really has anything to do with how the mind (conscious or unconscious) works, certainly not from a physical/mental level of the human body, though it may certainly be equated to BEing the Oneness of all consciousness. You say:

    ... but I'm not sure how, even a truly enlightened person, can "focus" on the "Self". Experiencing BEing the Self, yes, I can understand, but not "focusing" on it as if it is something seperate.

    This leads me to one of the books I'm currently reading... Flatland by Edwin A Abbot written in 1884. It's a mathematical based book looking at different dimensions, and how the characters (shapes) in the story that exist in one dimension struggle (or even fail) to understand the concepts of a higher dimension. e.g. the square in flatland (2 dimensions) is visited by a sphere from spaceland (3 dimensions) who appears as a size changing circle in flatland, and tries to explain to the square about the 3rd dimension, "upwards", but the square just doesn't understand. In the end the sphere pulls the square out of flatland into spaceland to see for himself, and only then does he manage to comprehend it.

    So, are you saying that ...

    ... it's pointless to try and understand the Self? (as for "boring" that's an emotion and created by mind as far as I'm concerned)

    @Hazel: I'm glad you chose to join in, as I can resonate with your words and you offer great understanding that really is appreciated and understood from my own perspective, as I work with energy therapies and suchlike myself, and my understanding of the universe can be described in terms of energy.

    Perhaps move away from the "connected" concept and just see the Self (big S) as Being everything all at the same time, rather than something seperate. As you say, you have trouble with the image of it being seperate, and that is because it's not. Once you seperate things, you are in the realms of the mind and dualism, thus creating comparisons between "this" and "that", e.g. comparing the "Big Self" to the "little self". The little self may be a construct of the mind, but the Big Self is not seperate from it, but actually incorporates/encompasses it and everything else all as One. If you have an image of the big Self as seperate, then you are "seeing it" and therefore that image cannot be it, but instead can only be a partial manifestation from it.

    I hope you understood what I was trying to say too. :)

    @Pan: I understand what you say, however I don't "believe" in some higher source as though it is some seperate entity. To me, to call it a "higher source" creates that seperatedness of duality as if I am not at One with it. However you already know that, you said it yourself...

    Intersting question though...
    I would say that everything we perceive is just a partial perception created by our mind. How I see an apple is not necessarily how you see an apple. So although there's some truth in what we are seeing, it's not the complete truth and it's clearly masked by our minds own perception. To see the apple truly would be to be completely aware of it with everything else in the universe as one pattern in the universe of energy (to use the same concept Hazel was using).

    @Olmate: I agree, it may just be a way of practicing, or a way of description for a practice. Perhaps it should be "meditate on the self" (lower case "s") to simply recognise what is before us so that we can let it go and expand, as you say, to infinity of Oneness. I've certainly experienced the Oneness during meditation sessions and afterwards, the only way to describe it does seem to be as an expansion of full awareness as BEing the universe itself.

    @Karmoh: Absolutely, the "Who am I" question is THE big question. What you call the "no self" is what I call the Self or Oneness, so I think we agree on that.

    @Michael: Yes, meditating on the "What" or "Where" am I? would also do it I think. As you say, we have walls that are created by the mind and by simply observing those and accepting them, they will dissolve and that is when we can become the One awareness of the Self.


    @Bryan: I see what you are saying, but I can't see that the Self is anything but the observer or Oneness of Being. To say that it is something seperate that can be observed, immediatedly tells me that this concept is one of duality, yet from personal experience and knowledge, I know that I am the observer and that I have no experience or ability known to me to be able to observe that observer, I can only BE it (i.e. BE the One with everything).

    You talk of the "soul" but that as far as I know is generally seen as a religious concept. It's not that people don't want to step on others beliefs here, but I think the "soul" is something that, to me at least, is a concept of seperatedness e.g. my soul and my body, as if these things are seperate, not just from each other, but from all others. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I just can't accept that myself.

    But that observer isn't a "who", it just simply IS. I can't observe it, but I can BE it, and have been it at times of meditation and/or complete stillness.

    You may be interested to look at the Headless Way website (The Headless Way -- Douglas Harding) which has some experiments you can do to help realise the observer that is there.

    I don't think it's illogical at all. Could a computer be created to calculate the position of every particle in the whole universe at a single point in time.... No, because the computer itself is a part of the universe. Likewise, the Self which is the whole universe could not observe itself, it can only BE it. If that equates to God, then what makes you believe that God would actually know that He is God? Surely it is only your mind that is telling you that "logically" he must be able to, but isn't that because of the limitations of the mind?

    @Edwin: Agreed, on all points. Certainly not a rant, just speaking from truth and knowledge.

    ----

    So, I think the question just simply can't be realistically answered. I don't believe, certainly at this stage of my awareness, that the Self, that unchanging observer that cannot be observed, can actually be meditated or focused "on". We can only meditate or reach states of stillness that allow us to BE the Self, whether we want to call that Oneness, being at one with God, complete Awareness, etc. etc. as we all have our own terminology to describe it.

    Therefore I will resolve to continue my meditation practice, for now, as I have done previously, without any desire to try and meditate on the Self.

    Thanks all.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  16. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Leonid,

    Thanks for your reply...

    Well, you could see the awareness as something that is being used, and then as you say this would be a recursive nature that would eventually, I guess, lead to everything using everything else, which is probably the same as saying that nothing is using anything in the first place. (if you get my meaning ;) )

    Likewise though we could say that we are just BEing the awareness, and there is nothing that is using it. "using" implies that there must be some purpose behind it, some reason for it, but does there really have to be? Just like saying that the universe is only X big (whatever X is?), in which case, what's on the "other side" if the universe is limited in size? The mind struggles to comprehend these things, but that doesn't mean it can't be so. Why can't the universe be infinite in size? Why can't the awarness just Be aware?

    :rolleyes:

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Bryan, I respect your opinion, and I don't feel the need to change it.
    However your reaction invites me into a response as well, and I will, but please don't take it as me trying to convince you into something.
    Your assumption that I jump to a quick conclusion is a judgement in itself. It took me 3 years of investigation with the aid of the system of Advaita Vedanta to find out who I am. I haven't concluded that the Self can't experience it's Self, I know it from experience. No doubt !
    You question my knowledge only because you haven't seen it ( yet ). You have a projection of what you think the Self is, and thus can start a discussion about it. But if you would know what the self is, and you meet someone else who knows what the self is, what is there to discuss ?

    Having said that, I kind of wonder why Giles started this thread in the first place ;)
    Reasoning and logic don't apply on Self. Reasoning and logic appear in Self. Self is the nothing in which everything appears, it is the first condition.
    Reason and logic are a fragment of the whole, and can't see the whole.
    The whole can see reason and logic, so are you reason and logic or are you observing it as the Self you allready are ?
    I am not sure how to react to this...

    Your saying "if there's a God" means that you assume there is. Or that you believe it so. Belief is an assumption that isn't based on any foundation.
    If something has been proven to be there, there is no need to believe in it anymore.
    If I have a bike, I don't have to believe in it in order to ride it. I don't even have to believe that I know how to ride it. I just know from experience.

    In trying to find the Self, I found God, and there is no difference between Self and God. Mind you, I am not stating that I am God, but I am.

    Giles stop chuckling ;)
     
  18. Bryan555

    Bryan555 Member

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    Edwin, I believe your command of English is excellent. So, in the future, let's just allow the language to do its job, shall we? When someone says "if it rains today, we'll cancel the picnic" suggests nothing about the probability of rain. When someone says "if there's a God" it certainly does NOT mean "that you assume there is" a God.

    Please? It wastes a lot of time and effort when simple language is misconstrued.

    Now, about your contention that the Self cannot observe itself: We know that the body can observe itself, and that the conscious mind can certainly do likewise. The deeper self, in most people's experience, has vastly more ability than either of those entities. So logic would dictate....

    But, wait. No, no! Logic is now banned from this discussion, because somehow "reasoning and logic" don't apply to the Self.

    Hmmm. I think, Edwin, as a reasonable man, you can see that you've made any reasonable reply quite impossible. Clear English is subject to any interpretation. Logic and reason are ruled out.

    That doesn't leave much room for anything, except your own point of view, does it?
     
  19. Leonid

    Leonid Member

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    Well... it hard for me to imagine place when two identical things exist in the same current moment. "BEing the awareness" implies that you are a that state. If you are the same, you have the same "quietly", the same material, now... if you are the same you can't distinguish between you and anything else. It's sounds philosophical but from our real life, if the letters have the same color like the page you can't see them. The light from the windows you can see when it meets the dust in the air, etc.

    All the things we perceive is from resistance, it's name is desire. If you would be the "awareness" you wouldn't have any resistance to it, and couldn't recognize it :)

    I believe that the mind always struggles to comprehend such things, but also that there is some purpose behind this.

    Maybe awareness is aware, aware of us ;)

    Kind Regards,
    Leonid
     
  20. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Gidday Giles (and everyone). I’ll start by saying again, I agree with Bryan, and his discussion with Edwin. It’s funny how we talk about this Omni Potent Being, Self, God, whatever term, yet simultaneously concoct all these limits, like God can’t see God. Why not? Because people can’t fathom it? Big deal. So God suddenly seems very limited. Never mind God, one day.
    All my other stuff was trying to point out to you the ridiculous contradiction many people put themselves through. When Buddha achieved his goal, he continued being focused, to a degree which obviously stood out compared to most, ala all Spiritual icons. So it was expressed as his nature. Whereas many want the outcome, but do the opposite. That can only come about by thinking the opposite, which can only come about by lack of choice, or, lack of focus. That is, according to our claims about LOA. Or doesn’t that, LOA really hold water either?
    If so, we have a limited God, and LOA doesn’t work, we don’t get what we focus on. So, why bother, if those massive contradictions run the show.
    Savants shatter our understanding of individuality, and how the mind works. So, I wouldn’t cling so strongly to even the mind’s commonly accepted limits. And the mind can only be and function because of God. Just like a piece of paper in the hands of a macramé master can astound and dumbfound, so too can the mind in the control and focus of a truly enlightened person.
    Don’t take this wrong, but the blunt reality is, it doesn’t matter in the slightest what you are or aren’t sure of Giles. Do you think the Wright brothers had a clue what their final plane would be, or the slightest clue what it would become? Can you imagine in that setting, someone babbling about jumbo jets, concords, shuttles, black box’s, runway schedules, Changi International, etc, etc, etc. Incredible focus has no limit. The Soul, as Brian raises, is a part of something so infinitely incredible... just relax, stay focused and enjoy the ride, again, ‘eyes have not seen’, and so on.
    You missed my sarcasm with the boring bit. Many reduce God to a ludicrous debacle. Yeh we know God, you know, God, the sort of boring, characterless observer that is a bit limited really. I’ll give him 40 mins a day tops. Then I’m reading my latest book, its heaps more interesting.
    Being, God, isn’t just a hapless observer watching random thoughts eternally... its the ultimate, infinite creator and experiencer, beyond your wildest dreams... Wake up, focus, smell the flowers.
    Or, go back to being an observer unable to see yourself. Yipes. You’re a good man Giles, you deserve so much more.
    One Law of Enlightenment. Surrender all creation to Oneness and it’s just that, a unique expression of ‘Love thy neighbour’. No armies needed. Then there truly is no limit.
     

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