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Meditating for a goal or complete relaxation?

Discussion in 'Meditation Chatter Box' started by MasterJan, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Uplift, even tho I believe that your campain comes from the purest of motives, there is one thing about it that I don't like.

    You see, several of the "systems" that you mentioned have had their eye on this site for some time.
    Every now and then, a claim will come that the PM LifeFlow system is bogus coming from one of their sites/forums.

    I think it has to do with the fact that a lot of people seem to be switching from the never ending flow of "special offers" or "order before noon for discount" coming from those other sites to the "order once and enjoy for a life-time" LifeFlow system.

    For quite some time, especially when I was still a moderator on this site, I tried to keep people from bashing the other sites. Mostly because I think it is rather cheap to scold someone who isn't there to defend themselves, but also because those other sites have made a generous amount of money, which can be used to hire more expensive lawyers who might go after Michael and his company. That can't be what you intended.
    Also, there have been cases of employees of those sites coming aboard this forum as new members.
    Their goal was to get people to realise that the LifeFlow system was just the next money-making system, and that this forum was just a sales-technique for the PM crew.
    Things they did:
    -Constantly trying to make people see that Michael was making money from them just like all the other sites.
    -upsetting people in the forums so that they might leave
    -arousing suspicion against the LifeFlow system, trying to convince us that the claims made by the PM adverstising were not backed up by proof.

    To be honest, Uplift, I was not sure you weren't one of them.
    Still not entirely convinced at this moment.


    I know for a fact that a lot of people here have tried other systems, and ended up staying here both for the friendly atmosphere in the community, and from their "successes" ( even tho these are hard to prove or even measure when it comes to meditation successes ) with the LifeFlow system.

    The friendly atmosphere comes from respect towards the community and their members, refraining from words that need to be muffled like this k******k ( it's a Dutch word ;)) , you know, basically behaving yourself.
    From the reactions of the forummembers above, it is easy to see that not everybody is too happy with the way you behave.

    You seem to be suggesting that the Truth that you keep reminding us about those other sites is ignored by us, but frankly, I couldn't be bothered less about what those other sites do.
    Also, as your post with my name in it suggested ( didn't your mother teach you it's not polite to point ? ) :
    Or maybe the LOA is not why I started meditating and the circomstances I am in don't bother me. I don't care what my circomstances at this time are, and who are you to judge me with the little information you have about me ? Why should I bother with my "story" ? Today it is this story, tomorrow it is that, I prefer to concentrate on that which doesn't change through every story.

    Maybe you have no intention to act like this, it could very well be that you just are who you are, but don't expect me to add you on Facebook as a friend if that is the case.
     
  2. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Uplift, Edwin is a genuine, helpful and well cared for member of this community. He is thought highly of by many members here including myself, the support staff and Michael. He has helped many with his deep understanding of meditation.

    Edwin recently asked you politely to not speak of his personal life and you are completely ignoring this.

    I attempted to help you recently because of the anger you were displaying - I have witnessed this type of anger a couple of times with people who were meditating but not releasing supressed emotions - once they learned how to do this they experienced great relief. When you then accused me of suggesting you were a bitter falure, I chose to ignore your comments and hoped you would calm down.

    Since then, you seem to be trying to goad others into arguments with you, albeit unsuccessfully.

    After carefully reflecting on quite a number of your posts and reading the great advice you have been given and seem to completely ignore I have decided to to offer you 3 choices:-

    1. Please have respect for the people in this community and stop hijacking various helpful and interesting threads with your anger at other companies marketing methods

    2. If you cannot refrain and contain yourself, please leave this community in peace

    3. If you will not choose either of the above 2 choices, you leave me no alternative but to ban you from the community

    I wish your spirit much peace and joy but I don't care for your ego
     
  3. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hi Uplift,

    Unfortunately, yet again a fair amount of your response has baffled me for various reasons and it still comes across somewhat angry/frustrated, confused and more than a touch repetitive. In a bid not to lengthen what has already become a pretty boring discussion :(, I won’t risk seeking clarification from you :D.

    I just wanted to respond very briefly to clarify something…………………..
    I thought it was obvious, but I was referring to the fact that I believe this forum is not the venue where you’d be best suited to finding a solution to the problem you persistently highlight, shoddy advertising. You could fill up petabyte’s of forum space :eek: with your ‘advertsing woe’ and still be no nearer a solution to it. I was merely suggesting that you direct your :mad: in a direction that can make a difference rather than a meditation forum :confused:. Otherwise it’s all just hot air and waving arms that people will no doubt start to ignore :rolleyes:.

    Right;o - that’s that for me, feel free to bang on but I think we’d be best just left agreeing to disagree :).

    Finally an apology (and hello and welcome :)) to MasterJan who’s original post has been hijacked this.

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  4. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    I know what you're saying but my point was, by your definition of "meditation", we could say that at any one point of time a person is focused on a single thing and therefore they are meditating, so everybody in the world is permanently meditating and therefore there is no such thing as non-meditation, so we may as well remove the word "meditation" from the equation and just say that people are people. The point of having the word "meditation" is to differentiate things (just as many other words do), and therefore meditation is typically defined as a particular style of practice to lead to particular states of mind. Meditating on what, in my judgment or others, are "less savoury" subjects would not be the purpose of meditation and wouldn't therefore be included as a valid practice of meditation, and certainly not something that would be classed as leading to the desired meditative state.

    What has the topic of this thread got to do with what other product/service providers offer and their marketing tactics? You appear to have an issue with these other people, but I don't believe it's suitable to be filling up the Project Meditation forums with your own personal gripes. :confused:

    Well, who knows better? How can you say that it's a stab in the dark, unless you truly know yourself. How do you know that, for example, I am myself not completely enlightened by human concepts of the term, and that I wish others to be able to follow me? (I don't claim to be enlightened, just using that as an example :D)

    Sounds like we're going way off-topic to me. :(

    Perhaps because it's not the topic of the thread, but sounds like a personal grievance you have for reasons unbeknownst to us. :confused:

    To the best of my knowledge, the people on this forum are very open minded and more than willing to discuss their own beliefs, understandings and be challenged in their understanding of things. However, some people can write things that come across as just being plain rude, and I don't believe that is the way to get involved in a discussion.

    Of course people would be wise to use their best judgement of such marketing techniques, but that doesn't mean that the techniques do not work. And yet again, this inistent digging at such a topic really doesn't belong on this thread in my humble opinion.

    Great, you are happy with Michael's offerings on meditation and his honesty in what he provides. So why are you using his forums, that's he's provided for free to allow us to discuss things as a community, for raving on about all the other providers?

    EnlightenQ was marketed in a way that wasn't to everyone's tastes, and we even had a discussion thread about that here. However, if you listen to what Michael talks about on the EnlightenQ, he speaks from his truth, knowing that people are attempting to learn to meditate without a good personal teacher, and offering a (well thought out IMO) technique or model to assist in meditation practice. Just because the underlying basis of the techniques are not necessarily a new thing, the way they are put together and presented to make them concise and a packaged product that people can use, is new and unique to Michael, so I would say that he is perfectly entitled to give it it's own name and offer it for sale. He never made any claims that it is a "must requirement" for being able to meditate, just that it can offer great assistance for those who are trying to learn meditation for themselves.

    Does it disappear? Is that your personal experience? Having practiced meditation for a good few years now, it has allowed me to bring the "stillness" (awareness, call it what you will) from the practice of meditation into my daily life, allowing me to become more "present" or "in the Now" and focused on what task is in front of me. I certainly wouldn't say that I cling to stillness as if it is some sort of attachment. I recognise that there are times when I am not still, and if I were attached to stillness that would disturb me, but it doesn't. I know that I can return to stillness.
    Perhaps your own experience is different. Perhaps the stillness does disappear "so easily" for you. Perhaps you are speaking from your own experience of having "stillness" as a goal or something you thought you should worship. However, I don't know if this is where you are coming from, but I would also say that you cannot make these assumptions about other people who you know nothing about.

    It is sad that this thread seems to have veered off-track to yet another seeming attack on other service providers.

    Uplift, you appear to have some valid and interesting discussion to share, but I feel your ongoing digging at the marketing of things that aren't really related to the topic or even Project Meditation, are detracting from the discussions people have started and really they server no place here.

    As others have mentioned, perhaps you should take your grievences to people who can do something about it, like perhaps the very people you are talking about. If they are truly honest in their work, then they will listen to honest feedback.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  5. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Will the real slim shady

    Hey Edwin, did you fail to notice that the K***###K was seriously, initially hurled out of the atmophere by one of your peacefull, respectfull members... but you failed to notice. Mine was jokingly just pointing it out.

    In Project Meditation's introductory info, the other meditation service providers are openly assessed and freely discussed. Now its suddenly a big deal?

    Believe I'm a meditation spy, even though your instincts are absolutely out of tune here, if its what you prefer.

    You always have a choice Pollyanna. If its your choice, ban me, but its not consistant with promoting empowered belief and life, to suddenly be powerless and without choice.

    Lack of consistancy is the biggest obstacle to this elusive 'Enlightenment'.
     
  6. MetaCognition

    MetaCognition Member

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    Let's remove the word God from this entire discussion and replace it with consciousness. It seems to be a word that you are personally attached to and have strong feelings towards. I can understand this. At one point in my life I identified as being a very strong "atheist" and any mention of religion, God, soul, or anything else set my logical side into a burning pit of rage. How could other human beings believe in this stuff, I would ask myself with fury. It even got to the point that I would go on facebook forums and debate religion and faith with "true" Christians and the like. Whenever I told them they were illogical, they would just say: "I have faith." Which of course, pissed me off even more. But anyway, let's continue.

    Who is this we that is God that you speak of? The human form itself is not "God," but a part of the whole of consciousness. While consciousness sees all and is all, the mind (aka the thing that is writing this to you and the thing that you are using to post here) is not all, in fact it is extremely limited in perception. Due to this, the mind can be easily tricked, and yes, many people take advantage of this (in fact our entire western civilization is based around this fact).

    Is this something to get mad about? No. People make their choices, and from where your mind sits they might appear stupid (or maybe they "are" stupid, it's irrelevant). Either way, constantly critiquing and judging the actions gets one nowhere. Also, no one on this board claims to be "enlightened." That's just a concept that you're trying to use to justify tones of spite, which is why a few people (including myself) were quite turned off by your initial post. Simply realizing the power of consciousness does not eliminate emotional reactions to others, though I think you'd find that not one person was actually "mad" at anything you said. We just simply explained how the way you were presenting your argument really wouldn't get you anywhere here because this is a forum that is not trying to argue or prove anything in particular. We are here to connect with one another and share our experiences, which are by definition completely subjective.

    Just realizing that within you lies eternal consciousness does not mean that you (the mind/body/whatever form you want to use here) can suddenly change all of existence. Most beings on this planet are not aware of their eternal power, and as a result, are led down paths of destruction and perhaps lunacy. At our very core we are all the same, but in this physical reality, it takes more than a few people who "get it" to change the entire scope of reality for all other beings.

    I hope this addresses some of the points you feel were getting ignored and truly wish you the best. I once again hope that nothing in this post came off as a personal attack, because as we all know, there's no one to attack but the mind itself, and that is not who you really are.

    Take care.
     
  7. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    True, I didn't notice that. Not that it matters as I am not an admin anymore, but who and where ?
    That's just it, the people in this forum didn't make the introductory info, neither did I. You have seen several reactions from the regular members that they are not interested, leave it at that ! The forum isn't run by the PM crew, it is run by members. Even the moderators don't get paid for their work.
    I prefer to get along with everybody. Being used as an example just isn't polite and comes across like an act of agression to me. The only times I came across this kind of behaviour, it was a deliberate act by a "Meditation spy". If you stop giving me reasons to believe this, I will gladly change my opinion.
    Actually, the way I see it, the illusion of consistancy itself is on of the biggest obstacles to enlightenment.

    But you are the expert I guess
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  8. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

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    Edwin, Edwin, Edwin!!!

    Seeing you without your shades on reminds me of a line from a silly movie in which a dirty (and senile) old man sees a woman in her birthday suit and promptly blurts out, "She's naked! And she's not wearing any clothes, too!" Put some clothes on again Cochise, or you'll go to your room without supper.

    Perhaps you recall that I was raised on a farm. Browsing through this thread and a couple of others with similar content, I began to feel a bit of proverbial pig wisdom coming over me. Must have something to do with having raised all those hogs in my youth.

    "Try to teach a pig to sing and you will waste your time and confuse the pig."

    Alles klar?

    Now, go put your glasses back on, there's ladies present. ;)
     
  9. Hazelkay

    Hazelkay Member

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    thanks Ta-tsu-wa

    I know your message was for Edwin but I received and understood.
     
  10. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    I know, this goes for my kids as well, like any other pigs ;)

    If you really want to, I will stop singing then.

    Wa'do, agatanai sawu
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2011
  11. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Gidday Metacognition. God is just a term that I substitute with Consciousness, Spirit, Oneness, Beingness etc, etc etc. When I use it I usually mention the other terms to try and convey my meaning. Because I talk about and like the ideals of Jesus as well, doesn't mean I am a Christian in the sense you discuss, I'm not.

    I'll quote you here:

    Also, no one on this board claims to be "enlightened."

    Ok, you are right, no one else has disagreed, I'll agree. But here's direct, recent quotes from Michael Mackenzie:

    'EnlightenQ is your guide to spiritual Enlightenment'

    “EnlightenQ” might seem a somewhat presumptuous name. Does enlightenment really exist or is it just a word coined in ancient times by monks and yogis to confuse and impress the common people? If it does exist, is enlightenment a mystical state reserved for those who spend 30 years or longer secluded in a cave in the mountains? You might ask, is enlightenment real, and if it is, is it available to everyone; most especially, is it something I can achieve?

    The answer is YES! Enlightenment is available to anyone.

    In simplest terms, to be enlightened means to see clearly, not just with the eyes but also with the mind and with our consciousness.


    One of the main strengths of EnlightenQ is that its positive effects are clear and easy to recognize unlike the ambiguity that may exist when using other techniques.

    EnlightenQ can be used by anyone of any faith... it works for everyone. This is nothing like anything else you have ever seen before.

    I actually agree that Enlightenment is available to everyone too, and possible. I have had experiences that made things about Oneness crystal clear, and that lasted for days sometimes. Many will be full of scepticism, and view me as egotistical, delusional, for saying this, but whatever. When the truth is, only my ego, only fear, would stop me from saying it. My experiences were nothing to do with sunsets, fleeting moments. They are the reasons I say things which none of you like or relate to, especially as none of you by your own admission is 'Enlightened'. Or simply as Michael puts it none of you see clearly.

    Its a simple prequisite of the Personal Development field that doing the same things over and over, yet expecting different oucomes is insane as Tolle likes to describe it.

    Naturally then when it comes to seeing clearly, I wont be saying anything remotely like a lot of you want to hear, and then the old familiar attachment kicks in, further trapping you in the pattern, the ever deepening rut that creates the lack of clearness.

    So, its little wonder if I say that consistency is a trait of Enlightenment, of clarity, that some, who by their own admission are not seeing clearly, say that the opposite is true.

    Gidday Hazelkay, and Tsa-tzu-wa. As for all the pigs stuff. Another trait of clarity is the ability to easily be honest, open and up front. If you have something to say, be open, don't play manipulative games. Again, that's utterly the opposite to Oneness, and anyone with an experience of Oneness gets at least that crystal clearly.

    Edwin, you were actually the one that made a real issue, investing time and energy, yourself, into addressing my undesirable, not in tune with the forum atmosphere, and rude, k****####k stuff, yet its obvious that it was actually created by a forum member, not me at all, then confonted with truth, suddenly, to quote you:

    'True, I didn't notice that. Not that it matters.'

    Consistency. Clarity. Enlightenment.
     
  12. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Yesterday I received quite a shock... today I am supporting 2 wonderful family members deal with heart-breaking challenges - have shed a few tears but through meditation I can be strong and deal with one day at a time. Life can change in an instant for any of us. There are enough challenges to overcome in life - we certainly don't need to manufacture them...

    Here's a piece of good advice I have copied from an old Good Life issue...

    "Don’t let other people wear you down. If you think that’s easier said than done please read on.

    The way to free yourself from the unpleasant affects of other people’s negative energy is to recognize and love yourself as you are, and to accept other people as they are and see them for where they can be.

    As you live more consciously through regular meditation you will love finding the real peaceful and happy you.

    You have total choice in every moment as to how you act in response to any situation. If someone throws their negativity at you by criticizing, condemning or taunting you, it is up to you what you do about it.

    By placing your attention on them, (even to show them how dreadful, incorrect, and unpleasant they are for doing what they’re doing to you) you are feeding that negative energy and engaging in a feedback loop that brings increased negativity back on yourself.

    You don’t have to diffuse the situation, or correct the other person’s perceptions. You just have to diffuse your own emotional charge about their perceptions. Don’t allow yourself to be drawn into their charge or you will be giving them way too much power over you.

    Nobody knows you better than you know yourself. If someone criticizes you, just remind yourself that it’s their ego, map of reality or belief system. Everyone’s got one, and everyone’s entitled to theirs. You don’t have to believe theirs. You only have to believe yours.

    Chances are, more often than not, the negativity we perceive as coming at us from another person was not even intended. We all communicate differently, but we all communicate from the same place – our own individual map of reality, our unique experience and perspective of life and the world.

    Most of the time, when someone’s talking to you, they’re not even paying much attention to you at all. They’re stuck inside their own heads (their map of reality, their unique experiences and perspectives), speaking to themselves, and you just happen to be the one present to witness it, the mirror off which they’re bouncing their own reflection. In other words: it’s not about you – even when they say it is.

    Allow someone to have their drama. You don’t have to make it yours. If you cannot tolerate being in the presence of it, remove yourself from its presence. Otherwise, just let it happen like the weather.

    Cloudy or sunny, your day goes on. Attention is energy. What makes the storms around you linger, what makes them worse, is when you feed them with your attention. Let the storms brewing around you blow over you, and they will blow over.

    Ignore them. Let it slide. Turn around and walk away. You don’t need to think of the right response, or the positive thing to say. Say nothing. It’s hard, but it works. Even if your silence only infuriates the perpetrator of the negativity, that’s over there, that’s them.

    You can be an oasis of peace even in the presence of choppy, shark infested waters."

    I hope it rests here - I am not wasting energy on this anymore - I need to put it to good use and send good thoughts to Karmoh and the people facing real challenges.

    May peace and joy reside here for all :) :) :)
     
  13. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    I still don't see what EnlightenQ marketing or any other marketing has to do with the topic of this thread. Maybe I'm not seeing clearly.

    Hmm, but the fact that you know what tsa-tzu-wa is saying means that you understood it with clarity, and therefore it is not a manipulative game, but words that clearly convey a meaning, as is the way of tsa-tzu-wa's means of sharing information/knowledge. Surely we should not be critical of any guru/teacher who sheds light on something through the use of analogy; this is better than just giving words without context or leaving them open to interpretation.

    I feel that this thread and Master Jan's question has been lost, and that is a shame.
     
  14. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Well said Polly. You posted whilst I was writing mine.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  15. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    To remind everybody:

    This is what the thread was about :)
     
  16. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

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    You're most welcome, and you give me far too much credit. I've never had an original, wise thought of my own in my life. What I know, I've learned from friends and wise teachers like yourself.

    I notice you're still naked, and you're not wearing any clothes, too. Think of the generations of impressionable children you may be influencing. By the way, rather than being pigs, I prefer to think of children as Ferkelchen...not quite card-packing members of the Fraternal Order of the Hog yet, but potentially on their way unless they keep their noses clean.

    Which brings to mind yet another proverbial bit of porcine wisdom:

    "Keeping one's nose clean is difficult when one roots in the muck with hogs."

    Stiu!
     
  17. Itlandm

    Itlandm Member

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    As it happens, my first reply was primarily to the original poster. But I see that I have become corrupted by the excessive verbosity of the place, so let me try again.

    Self-hypnosis and meditation are two different things. They are both acceptable, but they have different purpose and scope. Of these, one is limited, the other is not. One is looking for what you want to find, the other is seeing what is. One is about your life here and now, one is about your heart and soul forever.

    OK, that is roughly what the voice in my heart would say. But it has become rather frank with me over the years of living together, so my apologies if that sounds a bit harsh. Rest assured that no one will get angry if you wish to improve some particular aspect of your earthly life. Most of us do that in some way all the time, for instance by going to work. (Beggar monks may beg to disagree.)
     
  18. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    we call them "biggetjes" in the Netherlands ;)
    Ha, you got me there Go-la-nv ! Can't find a decent translation for that !
    So if you would choose a Tsa-la-gi name for me it would be U-da a-dv-si-qua ?
     
  19. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Originally Posted by MasterJan
    I downloaded and listened to the Discover Meditation tracks, and the man talks about 'not trying' in order to relax, and focusing only on the mantra, and your breathing.

    I am just wondering if I could meditate while focusing and visualizing what I want to achieve, for example acing an exam. Would this have any effect in helping me reach my goals?

    Is it good to sometimes visualize success rather than focusing on no thoughts at all?

    Thanks.

    Originally Posted by Ta-tsu-wa
    By the way, rather than being pigs, I prefer to think of children as Ferkelchen...

    we call them "biggetjes" in the Netherlands


    Stiu!

    Ha, you got me there Go-la-nv ! Can't find a decent translation for that !


    I notice you're still naked, and you're not wearing any clothes, too. Think of the generations of impressionable children you may be influencing.

    So if you would choose a Tsa-la-gi name for me it would be U-da a-dv-si-qua ?

    Originally Posted by Edwin
    Wa'do, agatanai sawu

    You're most welcome, and you give me far too much credit. I've never had an original, wise thought of my own in my life. What I know, I've learned from friends and wise teachers like yourself.

    I notice you're still naked, and you're not wearing any clothes, too. Think of the generations of impressionable children you may be influencing. By the way, rather than being pigs, I prefer to think of children as Ferkelchen...not quite card-packing members of the Fraternal Order of the Hog yet, but potentially on their way unless they keep their noses clean.

    Which brings to mind yet another proverbial bit of porcine wisdom:

    "Keeping one's nose clean is difficult when one roots in the muck with hogs."

    Stiu!

    Consistency, Clarity, Enlightenment. Sounds easy, simple and it is. Choice. Discrimination. So when looking for signposts, to Clarity, Oneness, choose it.

    See Giles, Oneness isnt consistent with choosing it, talking about Oneness sometimes, not talking, being still sometimes, and advertising, diluting and muddying that talk through the opposite. Its really, really simple, then your understanding of your whole being is focused, one pointed, and your success is guarranteed. Its not such a crime as such, but if you are sincere in your choice of Oneness, God, pay that choice, yourself, the respect that you deserve.

    So, to the the original question. Consistency, Clarity Enlightenment, through meditation, visualisation, expression can't fail. Use all the gifts at your disposal, consistantly, Clearly you will be Enlightened. Like Jesus said

    'How will you know them... Consistancy, Clarity, Enlightenment'

    Easy,

    'By their fruits... Consistancy Clarity, Enlightenment.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2011
  20. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    like Uplift said:

    Back to the topic of the thread !

    This post comes closest to what I believe.

    Perhaps it would be an idea to try both methods in one day, one meditation directed inward, and another one on a different time directed towards visualising your goals.
     

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