1. Unfortunately The Project Meditation Community Forum is no longer active. Although registration and the creation of new posts not possible, you can still read and search the forum...

    If you are unable to find what you are looking for within the Project Meditation Community please check out our new Blog and/or our Facebook page.

Meditating for a goal or complete relaxation?

Discussion in 'Meditation Chatter Box' started by MasterJan, Feb 21, 2011.

  1. MasterJan

    MasterJan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2011
    Messages:
    2
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    I downloaded and listened to the Discover Meditation tracks, and the man talks about 'not trying' in order to relax, and focusing only on the mantra, and your breathing.

    I am just wondering if I could meditate while focusing and visualizing what I want to achieve, for example acing an exam. Would this have any effect in helping me reach my goals?

    Is it good to sometimes visualize success rather than focusing on no thoughts at all?

    Thanks.
     
  2. MetaCognition

    MetaCognition Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Focusing on the thought, in my humble opinion, will only lead to more thoughts about that thought, putting you in an infinite loop that ultimately leads nowhere!

    My suggestion is to listen to the advice given to you in the track, as you'll see that when you stop focusing on the answer, the answer will come to you.

    Thoughts come up and go, and attaching to anyone in particular will cloud the clarity needed to find what you are looking for.

    Best of luck!
     
  3. Hazelkay

    Hazelkay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Hi Master Jan

    If you are focusing and visualizing your goals - this is not meditation. That is not to say that focusing and visualizing your goals is not a good thing to do - it surely is - but it is in a different space.

    Your meditation space is for something very different - an exploration inside, an opportunity to be still and aware, a time to observe just what is.

    Focusing and visualizing your goals is great when it leads to to the steps you need to take to actualize them.

    Here's to success and peace and joy in your life
     
  4. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Thats an interesting one. Anything we are totally absorbed in, focused on exclusively is meditation. Hence terms like pre - meditated.

    If you want to meditate on stilling the mind, thats one purpose for meditating. When people are totally absorbed and loving what they do, their state of consciousness and thus brain waves alter beneficially and their abilities reflect that. So we hear and experience terms like 'losing yourself in the moment', 'acting without thinking', 'did it with no effort', etc.

    There's different ways of approaching it. Sometimes, you may feel the urge to have no goal, and to meditate on your true nature, which knows what's best anyway, and which if followed will cause the right things to happen anyway.

    Or other times you may have a strong, clear inspiration and urge to follow a particular goal, and choose to use meditation, focus and visualisation to follow that direction much more beneficially than allowing your mind to wander out of control and aimlessly.

    A mixture of both works well, some time daily meditating on truth, your true nature, and some time daily focusing on your goals, on creation... ask and you will receive. Any goal can also be surrendered to your true nature as a way of finishing your visualisation, or meditation.

    Its seems like God, Spirit, Self, whatever we call it loves creating, and we have amasing ability to do so. So, if we are God, it makes sense to make the most of, and love and respect and nurture the ability to create, or our natural self.
     
  5. Hazelkay

    Hazelkay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    interesting thoughts on meditation

    Perhaps semantics get in the way here - I would term being completely focused on activities or goals a form of concentration. I know the dictionary definitions of meditation are wide- ranging and I can see that the brain gets into a very beneficial state when completely focused.

    It is interesting to see the different views on meditating.

    For me, meditating for a goal is not the way to undo the illusion of 'I', but I can see that for others this is not a path they want to follow.

    I pursue many creative activities which require deep concentration and I am often 'lost in the moment', and for me this happens when I am performing the task just for performing the task - not with a goal in mind.

    There is a 'meta' goal, of course - or I wouldn't be doing anything - the reason for meditation is that there is a 'meta' goal or I wouldn't do that either, but in both cases I see the need to let go of the goal for success in the moment.

    Perhaps I am not explaining my self very well, and I also accept that this is just my view - not a universal truth!
     
  6. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2007
    Messages:
    1,935
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Hi there MasterJan and welcome to the community. Here's a suggestion where you can benefit from both meditation and visualisation. If you meditate as Michael suggests in Discover Meditation, you will find at the end of the meditation, he has incorporated 7 minutes of beautiful music which he recommends relaxing to and just feeling greatful for each and everything you have in your life. The gratitude exercise is a very powerful exercise on it's own when practised regularly.

    After meditation, you will be in a nice relaxed state, perfect for visualisation, and so you may want to practise your visualisation sometimes while listening to the music. If you have enough time you could even do 10/20 minute meditation then 7 minutes gratitude then 7 minutes visualisation :)

    Try it and let us know how you go on,

    I wish you much peace and joy :) :) :)

    P.S. Here's a success story about passing exams...

    http://www.project-meditation.org/c...es/2716-i-passed-my-exam-100-a.html#post13830
     
  7. GilesC

    GilesC Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2009
    Messages:
    1,856
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    36
    As Hazel says, it is surely a matter of semantics.

    If I were to be totally absorbed in and focused on my totally disturbing and abusive childhood (it's not true, just an example :eek:) and the emotions that it gives me, would you call this meditation?

    Typically, the word meditation is related to the practice of quietude; stilling the mind and/or, depending on the 'type' of meditation, putting the focus on a single thing in the present moment, wether that is the breath, or a guided visualisation, or using a tool like a mantra to bring oneself away from the mental thoughts.

    I personally would not consider being absorbed in and focused on 'anything' as the practice of meditation. I think to suggest otherwise is perhaps a little bit of a generalization.

    Edit: If you haven't already, I can recommend the thread posted by Ta-Tsu-Wa:
    http://www.project-meditation.org/c...x/2357-principles-meditation-entrainment.html

    Hugs

    Giles
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2011
  8. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Who am I

    Gidday Giles, this is where the interesting bit is. Many people expound and intellectualise about their truth as being God, or whatever term, and as everything being an illusion, etc, etc, etc. Yet the truth is they continually dont actually believe or reinforce that belief in the slightest, nor can they demonstrate that in the slightest. So, lets see, if you meditate on one subject, an enlightened one in your judgement, you are God, and meditating brilliantly, and if you meditate on another, a less savoury one in your judgement, you aren't God and aren't meditating properly at all?

    The question is about visualisation and meditation. I answer from my experience. I am very results based, which I am also very gratefull for. So, for instance, if some one says to me, I understand all about motors, yet they simultaneously can't get their car to start, and I want to get my car to start, I dont see the point of going down that road. If I keep changing the spark plugs, and the car won't start, time for something new. Despite whatever is talked about meditation, about being God and all that, I have only ever met one person remotely able to continually demonstrate the ability to control reality and show anything like the likes of Buddha, Jesus, Ramana did, or other outstanding people in history, that have obviously made massive impressions in that field. And, no offense, but that person's direction, and my experience of that is a lot different to the masses of 'still sitters', stilling away endlessly.

    Its all funny, if you want it to be. Like Edwin honestly, sincerely wants to help people and give advice to someone about the amasing benefits of his technique. Yet, at the same time he tells how its a great achievement that he can still do his technique, proudly and happily describing difficult life circumstances? Either he loves and is addicted and attached to those difficult circumstances, or hasn't a clue how to alter them. He however can be, to quote Robbins again, 'dirt honest'. He could easily think, 'whooa, wait a minute, what am I saying here? I have and am creating difficult life circumstances (visualisation). Forget it, I'm ditching this and trying something new'. Enter rapidly a typically, horrified, insulted pattern, 'but wait, my technique is great and it helps me cope with difficulty, who needs or even wants indescribable bliss... dont they know its just an illusion to us real seekers anyway?

    Personal training is great, a great reminder and wake up call for me. People come in a certain state, wanting a different state. We all have our beloved stories. So simply, its really this simple, say you weigh 200lbs, and want to weigh 100lbs. Whatever you think you know, is totally irrelevent to weighing 100lbs (pay attention here Mr Vitale, I'll save you, but, this is only available until midnight, and only for a few, chosen, special friends, and after I've shown you, for an incredibly generous, discounted fee, I'll direct you to someone who can actually show you, for an incredibly generous, discounted fee, who will then direct you to someone who can actually show you, for an incredibly, generous discounted fee, who will...:D). Its obvious and simple. The sooner you ditch that story, that pattern, the better. But, as a personal trainer, that's when you get to clearly see attachment, ego, whatever, in full flight (don't take this as me saying I don't do it either). Yet, some people are able to adopt a whole, entirely new story just like that, and wow, its amasing, and miraculous, results manifest rapidly. Now, I know Edwin will be excitedly thinking, great, its that easy, thanks so much Uplift, I'll just ditch this ludicrous story, and get a whole new, difficult circumstance free one!!! Hooray!!! No more difficult circumstances, its easy!!! As for Joe, poor old God, its a bit too much for the Unlimited Almighty Being to help him lose some weight. Some things are just too tough, even for God.

    So, whether we are the master sitter, stiller, focuser, meditator, describer, whatever, until you really, honestly realise and know who is doing all of it, making any of it possible, its a stab in the dark at best. As far as meditation and visualisation, Jesus said all about growing trees in the ocean, moving mountains, etc etc. Well, Mr Jesus, silly fellow, shut up, and sit still, stop your unenlightened, disallusioned fidgeting, healings, miracles and moving mountains and get on the program... sounds like the magnificence of primary school assembly! Poor kids!
     
  9. Edwin

    Edwin Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    1,858
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Leave me out of it please :rolleyes:
     
  10. MetaCognition

    MetaCognition Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2011
    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    I don't mean this the wrong way uplift, as you certainly make some points that are well thought out and have their place.

    But there just seems to be an endless amount of spite/arrogance in your post, which seems to be the complete opposite of the entire community here on this forum. It seems like you really have something to prove...I wonder who is the one trying to prove it?

    It seems you are trying to intellectualize the entire meditative process, looking for tangible results, which ultimately just feeds back into the loop of "doing meditation" instead of entering the meditative realm of consciousness and taking that clarity into the "tangible" world with you.

    Of course, this is just my interpretation and I do not want to throw insults, I am just letting you know how the post came across to me.
     
  11. Hazelkay

    Hazelkay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    changing reality

    I, too, was disturbed by the anger in Uplift's post but have thought about it as a different point of view. This came to mind:-

    Hitler had goals, focused on them and changed reality for millions of people.
     
  12. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2009
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Hi Uplift,

    I get the sense that this seems to be a case of different goals for different people. For me, achievement is a very personal thing and is liable to be interpreted in different ways by different people. For one person it can be to lose weight, for another to get that car, for another to get that grade etc etc - for others it can be simply finding some level of peace within themselves. Different people have different goals, which then have different priorities to different people; I’m sure my goals are different to another person because of my personal situation and theirs differ to mine. Also people can still have a difficult life situation, even though they are doing something about it.

    This forum normally has the vibe of people sitting around in a room with a beer (or whatever is your tipple :p), feet up, discussing topics openly, not necessarily agreeing but listening to and giving opinions. Unfortunately, to me its feels like you’ve run into the room shouting, without taking the time to listen to anyone, and then started shouting again (I highlight your repeated comments on advertising here). From my perspective that’s not the best way to get people to understand, comment on and discuss your points/views. I assume you want people to do otherwise it would seem a bit strange to get involved with the forum.

    For me different viewpoints and opinions are to be welcomed, but to make it a discussion/debate both sides have to listen, and at times just chill-out and agree to disagree, no biggy just a difference of viewpoint :). If needs be just take one of these ;):

    [​IMG]

    Well, anyway, I’ve written more than I meant to and have various things (including my 20 min meditation :eek:) to do before I sleep. To be honest Uplift I wasn’t going to say anything because you haven’t come across all that well, but I thought that it might be simply a case of me not quite getting your writing style, which is why I knocked up this response. I hope its come across in the right way, but of course it is absolutely your choice to disagree with my comments and we can just simply agree to disagree :)

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  13. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Things obviously aren't as still as they seem.

    Not one person has answered why, if having purchased a product that is promoted extensively as 'all you will ever need', you then are urged to buy more, 'all you will ever need' products'. Nor has anyone addressed the need of the 'enlightened' sellers to use deception when selling the products? And what either of these tactics have to do with 'enlightenment'. There are better options available.

    Now, I'm not Jesus, but I'm allowed to observe and comment on his example and teachings aren't I, or will people make themselves more unstill if I blaspheme even more? Or is it I that am causing all that (despite much talk about our creation ability), by asking sincere questions, and pointing out the obvious. Jesus copped the full, unbridled, sacred brunt of the authorities and public when pointing out obvious descrepencies in behaviour and pathways to God. We all know the story.

    Moral of this story? Don't question non attached peoples' beloved traditions, idols, institutions... stuff. Obvious, continual rampant deception and shonky sales techniques by some is the pathway to enlightenment and stillness. questioning that, is a sign of a trouble makin' to##*r, who needs medicating, and who ******!!!!! #####!!!! is a !!!!!! blaspheming arrogant, useless, peaceless, dysfunctional ###****!!!, who should sign up before midnight and be saved! Or, tie rocks to him, if he floats he's evil, if he sinks he's enlightened!

    Shanti, shanti, shanti... sounds good anyway.
     
  14. olmate

    olmate Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2010
    Messages:
    404
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    My Teacher regularly reminds me that "what is important is not what others say or do but what I say and do". Afterall, that is all we can ever control.

    Olmate
     
  15. Itlandm

    Itlandm Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    In traditional religions there is the concept of "Heaven". People tend to think of it as a place, even after being told that it is inside them. But if one pays attention, a few times in life fate may hand out samples, and one realizes that Heaven is a first and foremost a state of mind.

    People keep seeking happiness by improving their living conditions. To improve one's living conditions is a good thing actually, as long as it is not by making things worse for others. (Thus the various "commandments", "precepts" etc about not stealing people's cows, spouses and good reputation.) However, even in the best case, improving one's living conditions can only eliminate certain sources of unhappiness. It can not take us onward to the higher level of happiness, or Heaven.

    This should be pretty obvious, since the middle class in most English-speaking countries now live more splendid lives than kings of old (except for the glaring lack of a large harem, but I don't think that really makes or breaks your happiness. At least that was the conclusion of king Solomon, after a couple hundred wives. Well, I suppose it was worth a try...)

    Each of us have a mustard seed of Heaven in our deepest heart. It shines brilliantly, but usually it is covered with all kinds of stuff. In eastern traditions it is likened to a diamond that must be cleansed of dirt and polished to shine. Another expression is a pearl that is buried in a field. In either case, until we find this seed of Heaven inside, we are easily stringed along by endless promises of the next miracle cure for weight loss, getting rich quick, being loved without deserving it etc.

    The human mind is a factory of desire. Whenever we have what we wanted, within a short time we will desire something more. One man thinks that if only this headache would go away that he has had for years, he would be happy. But his neighbor, who hasn't had a headache in months, is in a foul temper because his child spilled milk on the carpet and never said anything. Do you have any idea how hard it is to get the carpet clean after that? The truth is that if you were emperor of Earth, you would want the moon as well. There is no end to human desire.

    We can and should improve living conditions for ourselves and others (not ourselves at the expense of others). But true happiness can only be found at the very core of our being. And the brilliant, warm light that shines forth from this little diamond is called love, or compassion. Without it, there can be no Heaven. With it, as its brilliance grows, there can be nothing else. And it was there all the time.

    This is why we recommend meditating "inward" rather than "outward". And I honestly think the results speak for themselves, here. Which state of mind would you want to have for your future?
     
  16. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    Gidday Olmate, sounds profound mate, but what others say is important enough for you select a teacher, then listen to them. What if your teacher constantly said one thing yet did another, would you still blindly listen? What if your teacher constantly came out with, 'Hey Olmate, I need cashflow, let's use the old, pppst, I love you, so have specially selected you (along with every email address I can get my hands on), but you must act quick, and for an amasing discount, we'll throw in the secret stuff, midnight only, begging enlightened friends to help, for this once only chance...all you'll ever need, link ups for more kickbacks, chuck a few big names in sales pitch... that one always gets some cash happening'. Would you think, wow what an enlightened teacher, where do I sign? Or maybe, 'Hey teacher isn't that the opposite to oneness, truth?

    Itlandm, I agree, which is why I'll choose the state of mind that can use honesty when dealing with myself, and my fellow man.

    I post here, because I believe Michael McKenzie is sincere about meditation. I don't think the other's I comment about are, and believe people should choose wisely when offering reccomendations to others.
     
  17. Itlandm

    Itlandm Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2009
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I walked right into that one, I guess...
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  18. Hazelkay

    Hazelkay Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2009
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    the right to choose

    Dear Uplift,

    We all hear your message loud and clear and understand your antipathy to those who peddle religion, enlightenment, fast cars, weapons, another new sofa etc etc.

    The world was ever thus and I understand when we are blessed in our corner of the world with the freedom of the right to choose and the wherewithal to spend money we also have the right to choose wrongly. Wrong choices are a subjective matter. What seems wrong from one point of view may not be from another.

    If we claim that our point of view is the only right one, and if people are not agreeing with us, then they are wrong or their perception is distorted, I feel it is that arrogance that leads to strife, separation and one group pitting themselves against another.

    Some people spend their money unwisely, some people follow unenlightened teachers, some people follow enlightened teachers and hear the message wrongly. This happens, getting angry about it doesn't change anything.

    If you wish people to hear your message and act then you need to express it in a way they can appreciate and understand.

    From the posts I have read, this has not happened. In NLP terms 'the meaning of your communication is in the reaction that you get'
     
  19. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2009
    Messages:
    271
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    I think its worth considering that although the topic could be debated on this forum not much could be done about the actual problem. Why not constructively aim your anger towards people that can make positive changes, advertising/web watchdogs, governments or maybe even set up your own website listing dodgy products and your ratified scientific reasoning for why they don’t work etc?

    Whilst your concern about dodgy products and people being stung by them is commendable, why not consider that all the people on this site can evaluate a good product when they see it (lifelfow ;)), so the drum doesn’t need to be continually banged :eek:.

    On that note, I’m going to stop banging this drum :D

    Paul
     
  20. Uplift

    Uplift Guest

    I really am interested in why or how operators like Mind Movies can get away with those stunts. It really highlights human behaviour. I do think Michael is sincere, but I even wonder about Enlighten Q. Partly the incredible claims that were made, partly the results. It relates to meditation to me, in the vein of how people are so attached to things. I genuinely am interested in the example I gave about Edwin. Why when an outcome is not in line with results promised, or advice quickly given, change isn't easily adopted and enthusiastically embraced.

    The personal training thing is true, in the same vein. Experienced personal trainers can tell quickly who will and won't get results. Those that don't are so attached to their story, its really as if it is them, so much energy, so much of themselves invested. There's an old saying in the share market. 'Dont fall in love with the company'. I'm honestly not angry, but I'm not afraid of saying what I believe, and being misconstrued or misunderstood either. Its happened regularly to much greater people than me. If we look back through the posts, I have commented on obvious facts which relate to meditation, goals etc... in these cases, questionable outcomes. Others have reacted very, very strongly to that, despite espousing all the benefits of stillness. Again that interests me, because this stillness is clung to so tightly, literally worshipped, yet disappears so easily, despite so much practice. Why?

    If the meditation technique really is enlightening and your understanding of it working so well for you, why would the realization of Unlimited Truth result in such beliefs as, 'I think its worth considering that although the topic could be debated on this forum not much could be done about the actual problem (if you didn't say that, or if you feel you aren't really God or whatever, or if you feel that God has many limits, I stand corrected.
    Again, this inconsistancy with the desired state talked about is commonplace, despite external statements, and truly interesting, as it is profoundly limiting.
     

Share This Page