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LifeFlow 2.0. Is it real or a placebo?

Discussion in 'Meditation Chatter Box' started by AdamBrown, Jul 8, 2009.

  1. AdamBrown

    AdamBrown New Member

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    Hello all,

    I have been involved with yoga and meditation for the last couple of months. Where I have done daily exercises of both. I'm doing zazen and hatha yoga. Now I want to add lifeflow 2.0 to my zazen meditation. My question is will it really benefit me or will it act as a temporary placebo, like other hypnosis tapes? How do I know that it will increase the process of my meditation, timewise? I read that it would take me to meditative states of monks, has anyone reached enlightenment because of it? Has anyone reached the claims done by Michael Mackenzie, such as: "[/i]Meditating with LifeFlow is the fastest and easiest way to live in and enjoy the Power of Now! [/i]". I find this a very bold claim, any users here that can back this up from their own experience and any other proof scientifically on paper that backs this up?

    And finally, from listening to several scholars I learned something remarkable that has always stayed with me. It was explained through the following analogy:

    When you do fitness training, you practice formal procedures (exercises) that alter the fabric of your body in two ways…

    [*] They increase your baseline strength.

    [*] They increase your baseline flexibility.

    When you do mindfulness training, you practice formal procedures (meditations) that alter the fabric of your consciousness in two ways…


    [*] They increase your baseline clarity.

    [*] They increase your baseline equanimity.

    The goal of fitness training is not to achieve a temporary state of strength and flexibility that is present when you do the exercises and then vanishes during the rest of the day. The goal of fitness training is to gradually increase your baseline of strength and flexibility. In other words, the purpose of fitness training is not to create certain temporary states in your body, but rather to develop certain abiding traits in your body.

    So my question regarding to this is, is lifeflow like steroids or some drug that boost onces results[1]?





     
  2. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Hi Adam.

    Welcome to the forum :)

    A very understandeble question.

    I could bring up tons of quotes from different researches that have been done on entrainment, but none of them have been directly done on LifeFlow, so in my eyes that would be misleading.

    I myself have experienced LifeFlow as a very powerful tool. I am convinced it has rocketeered my meditation. I have absolutely no proof to back up this statement, but I have been using LifeFlow every day consistantly for more than a year now, and according to some schools and traditions I have "reached" that elusive state called enlightenment. I am convinced that there are deeper states of enlightenment than the level I am on, but the so called "moment of insight" happened only about a month ago, and I am still processing what happened to me.

    It wouldn't be fair to say that it is "all thanks to LifeFlow". I hate to make claims like that without proof. It is also thanks to meditation, research in Advaita Vedanta, Zen, putting in the hours of meditation day after day after day after day.
    But still, some have to meditate for 30 years in a monastary and still don't think of themselves as enlightened.
    Placebo or not isn't that important to me anymore. I just hugely enjoy meditation with LifeFlow, especially compared to meditation without LifeFlow.

    My life has changed completely compared to 2 years ago, when my journey of self-discovery started with an interest in meditation to cure my insomnia ( which it did, in about 2 weeks allready ).

    Try out LifeFlow 10, and if you don't like it, end your subscription. I think Michael even has a money back guarantee ?
    But I am convinced that you will be eager to find out what LifeFlow 9 will be like. You won't need any encouragement after 1-2 months of LifeFlow 10 :)

    Oh, btw, you mentioned the word "hypnosis tape".
    It definately is NOT a hypnosis system. Check out the info here: Learn How You Can Benefit From Project Meditation! - Project Meditation Community Forum
     
  3. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Hi Adam and welcome to the community. I can only agree with everything Edwin has posted and add that after spending endless money and time on other products I have finally experienced so many amazing benefits through LifeFlow and Discover Meditation.

    The past no longer bothers me and I simply enjoy whatever I am doing in the moment :) I really have gained everything I expected and more.

    One of my aha moments during LF has actually saved me thousands of euros.

    And yes, Michael does offer a one year money back guarantee on the physical pack and if you try LF10 he offers a money back guarantee also. If you subscribe monthly or bi-monthly you can always cancel your subscription and get a refund on the previous level so there is no risk involved for you.

    Hope this helps and I wish you much peace and happiness :) :) :)
     
  4. bashmaki

    bashmaki Member

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    The placebo effect

    Adam,
    Welcome to one of the most honest and straight-forward forums on the web.
    Your form of inquiry is not only welcome here but healthy as well.
    I could tell you my life story but it is not only long but probably boring as well so I won't bother you with it. As I write this I am listening to one of the Bonus CD's Michael gives away upon signing up with LifeFlow (LF). I believe you can keep them if you choose to turn everything else in for a refund.
    Someone here will correct me if I'm wrong; surely.

    I practice yoga pretty steady; 4-5 days a week sometimes 6. I push it pretty hard so use the off days to let my muscles rest. I've been meditating for many years with a few short breaks in between. When I came to LF I seemed to be stuck in some sort of rut. My meditation had been flat-lined for some time and I was beginning to think that was as good as it gets; then I found LF. I too, was skeptical but the example that Michael has put most of my skepticism to rest and the forum took care of the rest. I bought in hook line and sinker and have never looked back.

    Have I reached Enlightenment; probably not. Although, much of the time I am filled with a joy that cannot be described. All I know is I HAVE to share it with others. There is no choice; I find myself telling people I have never been happier in my life . . .or. . .damn it's FEELS GOOD to be alive. I just want to climb the highest mountain and scream for joy. I have more energy, my concentration level is up and I believe my thought process has changed dramatically.

    But you know where the rubber meets the road?
    At home!! My lovely wife and children have opened up to me in ways I never thought anyone would. My wife was actually a little fearful for a time because I was changing so fast although she was loving the results.

    Meditation has deepened beyond my wildest dreams. This A.M. I meditated without any CD and my meditation was as deep or deeper than it has ever been. Because I was a long time meditator I still love to meditate without any aids sometimes. It's not a problem.

    And I've not even reached the end of the series of CD"s yet. At this point I don't really care if I do. It's not as much of a goal as it used to be.

    Micheal McKenzey and his LifeFlow system are the real deal Adam.

    Try it; we'll refund all your negative memories and emotions if you don't like it;).

    Blessings,
    gus
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2009
  5. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    For me Lifeflow is something that exists independent from meditation. The quality of my meditation is one thing, but Lifeflow always do what its created for, regardless of how good my meditation is.

    Its like someones massages my brain. Interesting fact is, that when i stop listening to Lifeflow, my fears come back. Maybe the root of those fears will be dissolved when i go down to deeper levels.
     
  6. AdamBrown

    AdamBrown New Member

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    Fantastic reply's. My main concern is that when the year passes, and I stop using lifeflow. Will the synchronization revert back? I have a background in self-improvement where I used hypnosis tapes in the past, they have took me to several forms of trances, Alpha, Deta. However after using tapes and stoped using them the changes reverted. This is the meta frame I'm coming from.

    I'm not in search for a placebo effect, I wish to inquire lasting and for filling changes in my life that will benefit me. It's good to read your experiences for that is your truth, I became convinced of meditation due to the fact I saw scientific reports plus that i heard and read about the great benefits. I believe just like meditation/yoga says experience, science says experiment. Experiment and experience are in my opinion the same thing, their directions are only different. Experiment is what you can do from the outside, experience is something you can do from the inside. So this experience i had was and still is an inside experiment.

    I have read the "Whole Brain Synchronization" report, and it's quite interesting that such claims have been made. But will the results remain ? This is important for me, because, the distinction between meditation coming down from ancient scriptures is different then new-age (young) technology that claims to boost the results. It could be like medicine your stuck with for the rest of your life, and I don't want this to be. This is no means meant as a negative point towards lifeflow itself but due to it's being young product that seems to arouse suspession within me. I have this also with several other spirtual practices such as deeksha, or Shaktipat. I have even read reports from several where it claimed that several qi kong masters have said that it's possible to reach enlightenment within one year. Or for that matter full kundalini awakening. Questions have always been there for me. Will the concentration level be the same when you take these 'shortcuts'? Won't my concentration level be less if I use lifeflow instead of traditional way of increasing equanimity, clairity and concentration? Have there been done any tests?

    @bashmaki. It's great to hear from your experience, it makes me eager to try it out, but I have a question for you, are you using the prescribed Tracendental Meditation or do you use zazen?

    @Edwin, i have searched and read on the forum a bit before I decided to register, and I have read you are using zazen also? Did you continue using zazen technique in combination with lifeflow?
     
  7. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

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    To Placebo or not to Placebo? That is the question

    Adam,

    When you speak of placebo there's a decided negative connotation, as though a placebo effect is false and therefore has no lasting value. This is a common misconception. We use placebo effects all the time. They're so deeply ingrained into the fabric of our lives we scarcely even recognize them for what they are. Here are a couple of things for you to think on.

    A Brujo (a male witch) down in the jungles of Argentina is approached by a father who claims his daughter's honor has been violated by a young man from a neighboring village. He wants his daughter's assailant killed as punishment. So he pays the Brujo the requisite fee and off the Brujo goes to the neighboring village where he locates the hut of the young man in question.

    The Brujo is wearing the skin of the jaguar as a robe with the animals head (or the skin of it) covering most of his own head. In his hands he holds a sacred rattle which he shakes in a very particular rhythm. He builds a small fire and dances around it, chanting words and phrases that are the specialty words used by the Brujo. He does this for several hours right outside the hut of the young man. At the end of his dancing he shouts in a loud voice that the young man will be dead in three days, then he leaves.

    A day passes, the young man is fine. Then another passes; still no problem. On the morning of the third day a cry is heard from within the young man's hut. The mother of the young man has found her son stone dead in his bed, just as the Brujo's curse suggested he would be.

    We of the West look down our noses at this and say, "Obviously the young man was superstitious and frightened, and his own fright probably triggered a heart attack or a stroke or something. It's nothing. Just primitive superstition. Really? Does that tagging a label of "superstition" on it actually explain anything?

    Ajahn Brahm is a Buddhist monk working in Australia. Much of his work has been to visit people who are in hospice facilities so he has been around death a great deal. He reports that time and again he has watched the following scenario play out, and many Oncologists (doctors specializing in the treatment of cancer) have assured him they have noted the same thing.

    A patient will go to their doctor for a checkup and the doctor will tell them, "I have bad news for you. You have such-and-such a form of cancer and we need to treat it immediately and aggressively. I won't lie to you, the prognosis for this kind of cancer is not good but we'll do everything we can."

    A few weeks or a couple of months later the person is dead. They went to their doctor having no symptoms or complaints of cancer and shortly thereafter they die from it. The autopsy reveals in many instances that the cancer in question has been in their body for a long, long time; years, sometimes decades, just quietly doing not much of anything, and the patient never even knew it was there. But the instant they are made aware of its presence and they're told how serious it is, they begin to exhibit all the symptoms modern medicine tells them they should be having and then, as modern medicine dictates is usually the case, they die from it.

    The doctor wore no jaguar skin robe, but he did wear a professional white lab coat. He shook no rattle, but around his neck was a stethoscope and in his pocket were tongue depressors and other medical paraphernalia. He didn't dance around any fire, but he did run in and out of the room, ordering various tests while poking and prodding the patient in different ways. He didn't chant the mystical words of a Brujo but he did speak to the patient in unfamiliar, medically specialized phrases such as "metastases" and "cytotoxic" and "neutropenia". And he never cursed the patient to die in three days but he may well have discussed with the patient the statistics for surviving this kind of cancer, and given the patient some indication of how long a person typically lived after diagnosis when suffering from it.

    We call what the Brujo did mere superstition, but we call what the Oncologist did "modern medical treatment". As Ajahn Brahm notes, there is precious little difference between these two things. That patient had lived years with a normal quality of life until told they had cancer, then all of the sudden everything spiraled down and out of control and shortly thereafter they were dead. They didn't die of cancer so much as they died from fear and their belief that the cancer was going to kill them. Or, put another way, their belief invoked the placebo effect in a way that was detrimental rather than helpful. Far from being some "temporary" state, the placebo effect can be quite permanent as noted by the fact that people can die from it (that's pretty permanent) as evidenced by the two cases cited above.

    In my family and extended family about every third person is a doctor, most of them specialists. I hear accounts like this all the time. I recall one case in which a woman was suffering from some terminal condition (I don't recall what it was off hand but I believe it was some form of cancer) and she was invited to participate in the clinical trial of a new drug. She was told that in previous trials the drug had shown remarkable promise. She started in on the trial and her condition improved remarkably, so much so that her condition was deemed to have gone into full remission. It remained this way with continuing improvement for several months. Then her doctor told her that there had been some kind of error in the previous trials of the drug. Rather than showing great promise as a treatment it was now clear the drug had been totally ineffective. Immediately, and I mean as in that very day her symptoms began returning, her condition took a turn for the worse and in very short order she succumbed to it and died.

    At first glance you might think that her initial progress was due to the placebo effect, while her subsequent downturn was because the placebo effect was taken away. In fact what happened is that she simply substituted one placebo effect (the positive one in which the drug was effective) for a completely opposite placebo effect (in which the drug was useless). Both were placebo or rather, both were due to the power of belief that was set in motion by a placebo. The first placebo was a treatment thought to be effective, the second placebo was a treatment thought to be totally ineffective. In either case it was the belief of the patient that made the difference. The placebo simply determined what that person's belief was, positive, or negative.

    The question is, exactly how does the placebo effect do what it does? The precise mechanism is not known. What is known is that the placebo itself is not the "cause" of the changes. It acts simply as a catalyst that invokes physical and/or psychological, emotional faculties inherent in each of us. These faculties are quite real and as far as can be determined, almost limitless in their scope of application.

    Does Lifeflow work on physiological principles? Absolutely. Entrainment is a mechanical phenomenon based on harmonic resonance. Strike a tuning fork at the pitch of E and hold it next to a piano string that is also tuned to the pitch of E and that piano string will entrain to the vibrating tuning fork and start vibrating itself. The piano string does not begin vibrating because it "believes" that's what it should do. There's no placebo in that. It's a mechanical object responding to a principle of physics. Lifeflow employs that same mechanical principle of sympathetic resonance.

    But is there also placebo effect taking place using Lifeflow or other brainwave entrainment programs? Absolutely, and we should all be happy there is. To the degree that a person couples the physical effects with the placebo effects Lifeflow becomes an even more powerful tool. Someone who is an abject skeptic about brainwave entrainment and is certain it is nothing but pseudo-science, New Age clap-trap, is likely to experience little or no benefit from it. Their hostile and antagonistic attitude is likely to act as its own negative placebo effect that overrides any physical effect the entrainment program might have to offer. They are like a person who is so certain they're going to die from cancer that they do, even though their cancer might be of a kind that is effectively very treatable.

    The best approach to take if you're uncertain is to be neutral. There is plenty of evidence that it works. If you read over this forum you will read all kinds of reports about people who are making tremendous progress in various areas of their lives. Take those as your evidence that maybe there is something to it after all. With that possibility open, try it. There's a free and fully functional sample you can use. It doesn't cost you anything to try it out and see for yourself. The best evidence is always the evidence you experience for yourself.

    Is using Lifeflow going to give you a temporary improvement that will vanish away in time? Not likely, unless you employ negative placebo effect to counteract its positive effects. The only one that can control that is you.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2009
  8. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Wow Adam, now look at what you made Ta-Tsu-Wa do.. ( mild joke ;) )

    Thanks for that Ta-Tsu-wa, wonderfull... well article I would almost say.
     
  9. bashmaki

    bashmaki Member

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    Good story Ta-Tsu-Wa. Excellent explanation.

    gus
     
  10. Itlandm

    Itlandm Member

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    What LifeFlow really does in the long run is teach the brain, by example, to synchronize different parts of itself over a range of frequencies. This does not in itself lead to Enlightenment. But it should improve the quality of your meditation. For instance, most people meditate better when they are alone and in a quiet place, and either have their eyes closed or at least are in a simple, not too bright room. You can meditate elsewhere, and with time it gets easier and easier, but the process of meditation is clearly easier without those external distractions. Well, in the same way with internal distractions from different parts of the brain going about their own things. By synchronizing large parts of the brain, you cut down on the distractions and disturbances. This is probably the use that is most relevant to you. You can achieve a greater focus faster.

    The best explanation I have seen is that "Enlightenment is a happy accident, but meditation can make you more accident-prone". You may meditate for decades and still your mind but not get enlightened. And then you see a dead cat and are instantly enlightened. It really seems that random. But at least you get a better quality of life while you wait!
     
  11. seatrend8899

    seatrend8899 Member

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    Edwin Thanks..........

    After Ta-tu-wa's "beyond the top" post i scrolled to yours and "almost fell off my chair" in laughter....your mild joke packed a lovely punch........a real needed one...



    amazing threads of late!!!


    shine on :)

    jim
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2009
  12. Ta-tsu-wa

    Ta-tsu-wa Member

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    Brilliant!

    This is a fantastic quote!
     

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