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Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Salem Temple, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    I am happy to report that in my meditation time, much has been revealed. I first would like to thank everyone on this site and its makers for providing such a fertile forum for growth and liberation!

    So what do I have to report, nothing really, at least nothing new to many of you, but I believe it may be useful to review, so here I go, feel free to jump in or correct me if I may be wrong. Please bear with me, as I may use terms that you are not failure with, you may have better terms to use or different ways of explaining it, at any rate I am a stoic and do use sentential logic in my explanations, so I may use metaphors to describe a logic that I have no words to use. LOL now hopefully I haven't already confused you and we can move on.

    So as I have reviewed this site and learned a lot from each of you, I notice that most have an extremely strong and diverse approach to what I term centering. Centering is the most important and thus hardest state of meditation to achieve. Meditation by definition is not the goal of meditation, it is just the jumping off point. Jump off into or out of what? Consciousness of course, a direct experience. Or like the Zen Masters refer to the Ox. In Zen meditation the first encounter with the centered consciousness is characterized by the first glimpse of the wild Ox. By centering we are first able to see the ego by experiencing no ego.

    This first step is often mistaken for the place to stop and set down. But as many of you know, it is just the first step of an endless journey into true discovery and liberation.

    So now I would like to address grounding. Grounding like centering is very important, but I know very few who practice it. Where centering is an internal looking, grounding is orienting the internal looking activity of meditation and bringing its states of awareness to every day living. As Roshi would say, "Eat, drink, walk, work, sleep Zen. At this stage the Ox is becoming apprehended, but not by forceful struggle, as it may have been with first meditating, but more like letting it permeate your actions to where others cant help but see it within you, as you do in the most profound of meditations. Then the ego has no power, and the "real" you starts to shine. You realize the fatal flaw of the ego all on your own, and before you know it you are riding on top of the Ox's back.

    Before I go farther I will give some time for questions, feedback, comments and corrections :)

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  2. olmate

    olmate Member

    Hi Salem Temple,

    Perhaps "right and wrong" are subjective terms.

    I like to think of my journey as having horizontal and vertical dimensions to my spiritual development.

    Meditation tends to have a horizontal focus. That is the movement of one's identity from gross ego to subtle soul to causal Self to non-dual Spirit. This seems able to be achieved at any level of the "vertical" perspective.

    The vertical perspective is a little difficult to describe but in its simplest form is the world view. For example, some view the world in a concrete operational sense while others are in survival mode and yet others have a global view.

    Although the horizontal and vertical dimensions are not mutually exclusive, vertical spiritual development tends to be stimulated by spiritual practices other than meditation. In an "integral" context, meditation is one practice as part of many other holistic spiritual development practices including exercise, diet, relationships, intimacy, work, etc.

    So in essence, whatever my world view, meditation practice provides that deep internal perspective. My external view is influenced by many factors (including meditation practice) but seems to respond in a much broader sense to other spiritual practices.

    I like the example of a tree. Much can be seen in the world view, i.e. above the ground. Meditation practice seems to be the provance of the unseen world (i.e. underground) but its effects are sometimes noticable in the world view.

    Not that either view is right or wrong, a holistic approach is a pathway to a very different place for those who feel the need to take that journey. But of course, it is a choice and not one that carries with it a smile or a frown. It just is.

    I guess in that sense, enlightenment may mean many things. For me, I like to claim each new insight or awakening as being enlightened. My sense is that it is not a destination but a state of being.

    Nothing but the best...

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  3. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    I like the way you put that Olmate. I believe that there are different "types" of meditation.

    Most know about the physical and mental benefits from meditation. The clear mind, the increase in vigor and vitality. But that is not everything about centering, its the first step in what I term centering. And the same is true about grounding.

    You made an awesome point in stating that other practices are directly related to spiritual well being, if I understand you correctly. The practice of giving to the poor or caring for a wounded wild animal, or even paying tithe at the local church etc, all of these actions are the first step to grounding. So I love the horizontal/vertical representation you came up with. It makes total sense in this model.

    Centering is the finding the finest point, or the peak of the internal mountain of awareness. It is the place from which your consciousness arises and flows away, the I of I, the hearing of hearing or seeing of seeing. It is your own face before your parents where born.

    After which you are able to see yourself in the moons reflection on the tip of a single blade of grass inside a tiny dew drop. In the swaying trees leaves. A state where equanimity is found. And this is the first step in what I term grounding.

    The best way I have found to describe this over all equation is. 0 is the quantity and infinity is its capacity. "I" is a term of quantity, Individuality. "who" ("I am") is a term of an infinite personality. internal force external force. Energy conserved or expressed, compressed or decompressed.

    Centering is a matter of balancing the flow of energy at the internal base.
    Grounding is a matter of balancing the flow of energy at the base in an action of behavior with external effects. The base being your own consciousness. In balance equanimity is naturally realized.

    Two very important keys to be aware of: 1st is the closer to the center you become, or in other words the more balanced you become, the more you directly experience collective/universal consciousness. This can have very profound effects, ranging from mood swings and bouts of depression, to prophetic visions, healing and other "super natural" phenomena. I have found whole sects of Zen Buddhism that practice maintaining such states, but in my practice I see it as a distraction from the objective, and a nice side effect at times. I have also heard of people seeing angels or demons when reaching a state close to center, but again I see them as tests or distractions to stop who is not ready for the next state.

    And 2nd, when you do reach the center spend time becoming aware of its location or your state of being. Because what you will find out in the center may shock you, and do not take this lightly. Many have lost their minds as I will later explain. Just take your time and take in each state. Understanding it, mastering it. Each step will prepare you for the next. The next step is locating the exact center, as I just hit on a bit. I call it circling. I will explain it in more detail in the next post.
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  4. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    First let me clarify, Centering at first isn't about the moment when you find the center, its about the journey to the center. There are stages on that journey that are clearly recognized by a master or roshi. Stages like I described where strange things may occur. The first stage is the mental and physical stage. A stilling of the mental pond so to speak. This sets the stage for the next level. In this level we work out many problems and blocks in our psychological world. This can take a number of years and most people who give up meditation do so at this stage from what I have seen. and the stages progress from there, the same is true with grounding. But grounding seems really easy for those who understand it.

    Circling is, in my book, one of the most critical stages of centering. If not done at all centering will not be achieved. The center is much like the blind spot of the eye. With careful observation one can find the blind spot, but when reading or watching out for traffic we rarely if ever notice it. If one doesn't circle, they simply pass it by, thinking that they have gone as far as they can go.

    Circling for me was my intent to find the point from which all consciousness arises from. I went back and forth, passing it by at first, so in effect I call it circling. Once I located the general area or state of being, I took it slow, observing everything like a blank tape being recorded. I would trigger an idea and watch very closely for where it was coming from. When I pin pointed the opening I consciously went into it. I knew that I had to let all thoughts and emotion go and it all went away. This "dropping off" of the mind/body is the first solid enlightenment encounter. As I watched, and allowed everything start to fade away, I too started to fade away with it all. all that was left was a place of no place.

    It is also called the silence, and it goes where ever I go, even into the most chaotic places. Doors are opened before me, I leap free over the moon and 1000 things are as 1 vacant sky. The web weaves itself together just as before, and all that is changed is I am now awake. :)
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  5. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    Enlightenment is like lighting a candle, and know that you can and likely will get burned form time to time. So be careful when doing any deep meditation, take time to take it all in before making any snap choices. Some have gone as far as to think that they are a god, and eventually think that they are better then everyone else. They often will sell you meditations intentionally that don't work and feel like masters, but lack the compassion and insight that true masters have.

    I am so glad to be a part of a community that doesn't sell false material with inflated promises. The media I have seen so far presented by this site is quality, and if taken as prescribed and suggested will produce amazing results. I have been working with brain synchronization tools every since I started producing music. I am actually interested in how Michael's team puts it together. I have been working on a multi-level synchronizing method I developed in 2002. After doing some music therapy research I have found some very good results I would love to review with people like Michael who perhaps know a bit more about it then I.

    I would love to get into manifestation, teleportation, energy alchemy, multiple awareness, etc but for now I must go to bed LOL. I will hit on some of that tomorrow

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  6. Panthau

    Panthau Member

    It just is, isnt it. The universe isnt intellectual, as far as i can tell. Words are like empty bullets, and only human use them to explain something, which cant be explained anyway.
  7. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    You are absolutely right, it is experiential not intellectual. Words are only as good as the logic invested in them, and even then they do little justice to the matter they attempt to describe. Yet we shouldn't forget that words too are a part of the human experience. Though we should not limit our thinking to words, words do a better job at communication then pictorials or gestures, but yet again we should always remember that action communicate far better then words ever will. We can explain in great detail the functions of an arrow and how an archer may shoot that arrow, but unless seen first hand and experienced first hand, the skill and coordination of an archer is not able to be expressed in words without the experience.

    That is why a trained master has been so valuable in the passed. Because instead of a book of words and a lot of assumptions, we have access to someone who has personally walked the path, or achieved the state we seek in our own lives.

    The truth is that what words try to describe is a single infinite whole, and words do so by segmenting infinity into much smaller parts. If viewed in part, as we tend to do, then the picture is unclear and has holes or blank spots that leave much to question. But also note that the more words that are used the closer to infinity we become, and the clearer the image that words paint becomes, and closer to the truth. I don't mean wordy, I mean more words in a dictionary to utilize, to pin point a phenomenon by including all its variables.

    The evolution of words has given use the use of mathematics. To me mathematics and logic are far more advanced tools then simply mystical words. Taste may not be explainable in words, but the physical reactions can be patterned and documented, in such a way that a future observer can recreate the same exact pattern, and thus experience the same exact taste. That is why stoics use what is known as sentential logic aka propositional logic,when explaining with words. The difference in Term logic and sentential logic is that term logic depends on everyone defining the words used as the same exact term, and sentential logic depends on the logic invested in the pattern of words. One creates ever increasing definitions, and the other use words to quilt together a picture to describe and represent the math behind the event. Metaphors are the creation of sentential logic. Describing someone as a donkey doesn't do much in terms of actual definitions between the comparison. But understanding the stubbornness of a donkey, we can apply the same logical activity in terms of a stubborn person. So instead of defining the persons activity to a definition meaning, we say jack*** and it gets the point across.

    So please do take my reckless words recklessly and the descriptions as incomplete without experience.

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  8. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    Manifestation- The term in context to what I understand doesn't indicate the popular idea of some mystical process to get what you want or making 100 bucks appear out of nowhere. That kind of stuff I term as energy alchemy. Manifestation in my context is the unfolding of the universe and each persons orientation to that unfolding. Manifestation takes place naturally and doesn't need any help, the point of bringing up manifestation is to address the blocking or obstruction of manifesting, which is the cause of a lot of suffering in our world.

    When we say to ourselves, I cant do that, or that is impossible, we limit our view to that perspective. Some think that if they remain positive that doors will open and possibilities will manifest. They don't, in fact all that is happening by being positive is they stop blocking the manifestation that was going on the whole time, the only door opened is the one in their own mind. The same door that was blocking their view before.

    So what is the secret or truth about manifestation? It is simple, manifestation occurs naturally, and will do so as long as it left to "just be"
    The truth is that life, the universe, existence is always finding the balance to things. The more centered we become the less we restrict the manifestation.
    The secret to manifestation is that from any single point in the universe, any other point is accessible, given the needed time and effort in that direction.

    Manifestation in terms of mathematics and physics is the unfolding of undifferentiated infinite possibility into a continuum of differentiated probability. Infinity doesn't stop being infinite, therefore the patterns that are differentiated now will be subject to entropy until they have broken down and returned to the undifferentiated state or transcended into a continuum within infinity all "its" "own".

    Being aware of this does one great thing for our awareness itself. And that is by realizing that what we may see possible, even know as possible, must be contained in what is probable. As unlikely as it may seem, this is true. With our own perceptions we make or break the world we live in.

    Test this: look in the mirror and tell yourself that you are awesome. I will tell you now, that many of you wont feel any different after the first few times of doing this. But do it every morning. especially when you wake up in not so good of a mood. Why, and what is it for? This is how it works. You know how a child will have to be told over and over to stop getting into something until they finally get it. Well it is true that it has to do with memory recall and action reaction awareness. But it also has a lot to do with subconscious imprinting. The same subconscious imprinting that schools and military count on. With school it is seen in the form of a performance test. The variables must include stress by means of fail or pass grade, and a short time frame. What happens is the information is triggered automatically. The stress of war triggers military training. Its simple, the amount of information given by the military or education system is far to vast and complex to actually teach it all. So subconscious imprinting is a way of compressing the information for later recall when needed. The obvious problem is the students don't learn the material in a way that aids their mental intelligence, but it does increase the amount of mental knowledge, and in turn of course can be used to increase mental intelligence if we think a bit about what we are learning or imprinting.

    So in telling yourself that you are awesome, you are subconsciously imprinting the idea in your deep mind, and like a child, the more you tell your mind the more it will learn to listen. The fact is you are awesome, and that is not delusional. What has been delusional is the block in your mentality not allowing you to see how awesome you really are. By imprinting it on your mind your opening up your subconscious mind, allowing it to directly see the manifesting of your awesomeness, and allowing it to happen on its own. By doing this you are stopping the blocking of the manifestation of your awesomeness.

    This awareness has aided my development very much and I hope it does yours too. :)

    Last edited: Oct 25, 2010
  9. olmate

    olmate Member

    Hi Salem,

    You have a wonderful ability to bring up imagery in your words. The landscape you describe has many familiar features.

    I am not sure if you are familiar with the work of Dr David Hawkins. He has written a number of excellent works including “Power Versus Force”, “Eye of the I”, and “I” along with many others. The reason I mention them is that he does describe in detail many of the “distractions” that sometimes appear along this path.

    I must add that your experiences are fascinating. Many on this forum also have related the mysterious side shows that sometimes emerge. In that sense I often remind myself of the importance of the middle way.

    Notwithstanding the temptations, free volition remains a constant. I refer to my “tempter” as the old man. He is very subtle – such a nice guy – but someone who can invite all sorts of skinned knees should I take up his suggestions. The other thing is that he is always there. We seem to have an understanding though.

    I guess the issue of manifestation within the context of the framework that I like as my frame of reference, falls within the vertical spheres of practice. I can recall many years ago desperately seeking abundance. The last couple of years have been struggling with the problem of abundance. Go figure! It does bring up close the issue of being careful what you ask for.

    So in that sense the marrying of deep insights from the stillness – linked to my outward day-to-day being brings with it the most incredible journey.

    Or… perhaps I am just crazy…

    Nothing but the best…

  10. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    Thank you for your insights olmate, I was told once, when questioning if I was crazy, "all great men are crazy" I have heard of Dr David Hawkins, but I will grab a book of his the next time I get the chance

    Thankyou for your imput as well Panthau. I am overjoyed to find such a bright group of beings :)
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2010
  11. Midnight

    Midnight Member

    The posts in this thread are incredibly refreshing to read!

    My perception of enlightenment is that it is always there, but it can be easily overlooked because the mind gets caught up with itself and focuses on that. When you learn to let go of the mind, and find peace, it cleanses you, and can turn to letting buried emotions rise to the surface.

    From here, you can choose to resist or ignore, or accept what is happening. As your progress, you learn to accept and just let it suck. But in this state, it seems as if thoughts are just more persistent, and even though you can see through the mind's tricks, you still feel a bit "off". I believe it to be the pain body that influences the mind this way, for when I'm not experiencing this, everything comes naturally, and things just fall into place.

    But really, this back and forth exchange of peace and pain doesn't really matter, because these states are not the true you. The natural state of being is a feeling that results from being in touch with yourself, and feels nice, but the state itself is not you.

    That's how I see centering. But it seems my mind is great at categorizing and creating patterns, so I thought these different stages would occur mechanically. It didn't leave me open to new possibilities, and sort of leads me to forget how non-linear progression is, which I'm rediscovering day by day.
  12. olmate

    olmate Member

    Hi Midnight,

    Your points are (I think) important. My sense is that much of the meaning we spend hours each day manufacturing seems to come from the world of form. By this I mean our reactions to the little and the big things that happen each day. Some things fall away. Some things stick like glue and accumulate into big issues - sometimes after years of supression.

    It is this transference from the world of form to the formless that is a tricky area. Letting go in the realm of the formless is something that meditation practice is a wonderful aid to help us see and awaken to the essessence of who we are.

    My sense is that as form evolves - as it clearly does, enlightenment itself cannot be a static destination. That is what I was trying to express in an earlier post (perhaps poorly) by suggesting enlightenment is a way of being rather than a destination.

    After reading your excellent post, that perhaps seems even clearer as I contemplate this further...

    Nothing but the best... every moment... and in timelessness...

  13. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

    Great well written subject Salem, and some great responses too.

    This subject is new to me but here goes.

    To be enlightened is to be fully human. The seekers of enlightenment have existed in some form or another since humans evolved in to thought machines and the belief that this body and world in which we live is real and ours.
    So, for all intents and purposes, there is nothing new to be taught, nothing new to be learned, only a fundamental nature to be remembered.
    We have devised over millennia hundreds if not thousands of different systems that assist us in the desire to remember the reality of who we are. So is it true that all that is needed is a very simple shift in awareness?

    This shift would be so small it would be the most immense shift that can occur in human consciousness and there is the paradox for most humans. While we dwell in thought and suffering we cannot comprehend that the smallest atom and the universe are but the same.

    I need to ponder this more…..but it’s a start :eek::)
  14. Midnight

    Midnight Member

    That's exactly how I feel. I used to think enlightenment was something to work up to, or a unique state that only meditation could achieve. Or that it was a state of pure infinite bliss and you would never feel any negative emotions ever again. But alas,

    "To be enlightened is to be fully human."

    Wonderfully true words by Karmoh. It's simply that. The true unveiling of nature within us. Sounds cheesy, but it's the best way to explain it. :)

    I also used to think that enlightenment was the ultimate goal in life... but it seems it isn't. I'm still not so sure as to what the purpose of life is. Such knowledge will come in time, I suppose.
  15. olmate

    olmate Member

    Whenever I pose that question all I ever get is:

    "Straight and narrow is the path...waste no time. Gloria in Excelsis Deo!"

    I still look at those words and wonder...

    But I agree that being fully awake is definately a prerequisit to that question being understood and answered.

  16. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    Thankyou for all the great posts!! I agree. I explain it as an experience, the journey is part of the destination. Enlightenment to me is a journey that is infinite by nature. So in context of getting to the destination, its impossible. So I must agree, enlightenment is not a destination, but nor is it an aimless shot in the dark. Enlightenment is simply being awake, fully aware, fully human :) The instance of the enlightening experience is all around us, and true it is not needed that we meditate to experience it, in fact we dont have to seek it to find it. Though the chances of stumbling on it are not likely. Meditation sets the destination unknown, and this puts our being into a constant ready position. The state we hope for is an unimpeeded state. Clear and free to develope actively. I like the fact that you all seem to make that clear point. I like to percieve it as the unaltered state, alot of people try to achieve "altered states" of consciousness, involving drugs and deprivation ect. But to me the point isnt to alter our state. Stress is a very altering state of consciousness that effects almost every action in our life. Meditation at first reduces this stress, thus allowing our state of being to nuetralize out into the balanced state or enlightened state. After much practice it is possible to eliminate stress all together from your mind. The quicker you learn to speed up the "cleaning" processes, the easer it becomes to do it on spot.

    Enlightenment is like breath. If poluted then the air we breath is a danger, as thoughts can pollute the mind. When clean and clear, we can breath and see clearer. Like breath can never be stoped without death, so enlightenment can never be kept without constant awareness.
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2010
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Member

    Well...not exactly...

    Thoughts can't pollute the mind.
    Thoughts are the mind. That what we are, what we first experience in our meditation session, can't be altered or affected by anything in this world, including thoughts. Some call it consciousness, but there are many names for it that don't describe it but only point towards it.
    Thoughts, feelings, moods, states of mind, pain, grief, everything is instantly and effortlessly seen by you, as consciousness. There is nothing wrong with any thought or feeling or state of mind, until you start to think about it.
    Accepting that which arises as simply that which arises, without resisting it, without giving it attention for thought, that is one of the benefits of enlightenment.

    When you start to think about what I just said, one would be tempted to think that this means that we have to accept everything in life and can't do anything to improve our life, or are unable to divert whatever disaster might be headed our way.
    But that is not what I mean with acceptance.
    You are still going about your normal ways to live your life, but this time without panick, without negative thoughts racing through your mind. This actually gives mind the time to find a better solution, and you act upon that thought because you recognise it as the best solution. Fear is a terrible advisor, and when you realise who you really are, or what you really are maybe because consciousness is not personal, fear may still arise, but you don't give it attention. And then the fear will disappear again.
    It has to disappear, because like everything else in this world, it is temporary.
    People who are suffering from depression suffer the most from the feeling that they will never feel better, but this is just another trick of the mind, because everything will either end or change, it has to because it is of this world.

    Consciousness however is not of this world. It isn't affected by time, and thus must be placed outside time. The only moment in which consciousness can occur, is Now, eternally Now. Even tho the body is born and will ultimately die, that which observes everything, from birth to death, the real you, is eternal.

    First you have to realise that you are the observer, that you are not what you think, but that you are the one who can see the thinking occur.

    The next step is to try to find out if that what is looking has any qualities. Is it a certain size, colour, odour ? Does it have any qualities or is it no-thing ?
  18. Salem Temple

    Salem Temple Member

    I think I may have spoken unclearly. Enlightenment is like breath, we all breath without end, until we die. The breathing in is like taking in thoughts. If you mistakingly take a thought as yourself, then you have entertained a negitive thought pattern, as you said, it has to dissapear and will because thoughts are temprol and the thinker is consciousness.

    I believe we said the same thing, just in different ways.

    When the thinking mind is directed at the source of consciousness, enlightenment can occur. When the thinking mind is distracted or gripped in thought, enlightenment can become obscured, thus suffering persists.

    There is a path where every step is the best step, every thought the best thought and every action the best action. It is called the Way or the Path. Any other step, any other thought or action leads away from the path and results in suffering. What are the best steps? What are the best thoughts? What are the best actions? If you do not already know, then you are not on the Way, and might as well abandon all your steps, thoughts and actions. Once you truely achieve this, you will find yourself transported on the Way. Your steps will be light, your thoughts clear and your actions peaceful and full of life. :)

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