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Art of meditation

Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Panthau, Nov 5, 2009.

  1. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    Hi there,

    A few days ago i visited a guy, who calls himself "Geistheiler" (maybe its Ghosthealer in english, not sure). Ive been reading and watching a bit about such, but he had an completly different approach. He told me, that the "information flow" (what we experience) from the "greater self" (however you may call it) gets stuck for most people on the half way, because we decide to do some things and do some things not (because of religion and the things that society learns us). So his approach is, to just watch everything thats coming up and feel your body. Like Edwin and others suggest, to feel any feeling but detach from it and just watch it. Thats because our "greater self" wants us to experience certain things, and if we allow the experience to "flow" we avoid the duality of things.

    Maybe i should say that this guy worked with great people like Serge King and others.

    I like that point, as it makes sense. My problem with that is, what for did our "greater self" create consciousness and "free will", if in the end we have to give ourself up and experience what the greater one wants us to experience. That feels to me like if we´re telecontroled dolls.

    Any ideas?

    Edit: Uhm, maybe the topic title doesnt exactly fit the content. Its because i thought its another approach to meditation as most people just "try" to be quiet, but that seems completly pointless.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2009
  2. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    I think "spirit healer" is more fitting, geist in German is not only ghost but also spirit.

    I agree mostly with what he sais ( just don't understand what could be wrong with his own name ), but I am not that sure about his interpretation of "greater self" vs "ego" because that is what this means, "deciding" to "do" or "not do" things.

    That we think that we have control over what we do or don't do is the actual cause of suffering. Just like you can't stop a thought from coming up, it is also impossible to stop yourself from acting.
    Sure, sometimes you think that you acted stupid. But thinking that is nothing more than a re-action to something that has allready occurred.
    Have you ever thought " now why did I do that ?"
    Instant proof that there is nothing you can do to stop you from acting. You are the observer of all that happens, including what "you" are doing.

    If you accept what happens, what is being done, by your body or the world around it, without regret about what happened in the past, and without anticipation of what might happen, fully accepting what is happening Now...
    That is when you stop feeling terrible. For ever.
    Sure, emotions can come by that you would describe as "terrible" now.
    I still get scared, I still get angry. I still feel.
    But it is only for as long as I am feeling it. No need to do anything with it, just witness it.

    Giving yourself up as geistheiler says, means realising that the story you made up to describe yourself is a fraud.
    There is no "I", there is no "me".

    This is the only way to stop suffering, because when there is nobody there, who suffers ? If there is nobody there "running the show" what more can you be than the observer of what occurs ? Have you ever done anything before ?
    How can ego get in the way of True Self when True Self acts first, and ego reacts to that ? Thinking that you are a seperate person fighting against the rest of the world has brought you nothing but trouble.

    Accepting that you have never done anything wrong, never done anything right, that everything you have done wasn't done by a seperate you but by the You that is also Me and everybody else, anything else...

    But please, don't believe what I said, bring this to Geistheiler, and ask him how you can see this within yourself. Oh, and if Geistheiler asks you money, find an Advaita teacher in your country, and ask him, most Advaita teachers don't want money.
     
  3. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    Thanks for your opinion Edwin!

    Yes, spirit-healer does fit better :)

    I can follow you, and it does make sense. It just feels like dying before it would be physically necessary. To give myself up was my idea, not from Geistheiler, because thats how it feels. But as you mentioned, the "i" is a story... its not real... its just hard to accept that it is that way. Maybe its easier to give up our idea of "i", when we experience what we really are.

    Still i dont understand why theres consciousness and "free will". The only point would be, to test us if we find the way out... like a rat in the labyrinth.

    Yes, Geistheiler takes money hehe... thanks for the hint with the Advaita teachers :)

    Edit: Seems theres no Advaita teacher that doesnt take money (i wouldnt care about overhead costs, but they all take a lot more). So if you know or find someone around vienna, please let me know :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2009
  4. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    Or it could be that we're just running around in circles searching for the unfindable.
    Because it simply doesn't exist.
    This would make people like Tolle great philosophers,but nothing more.
    If your intent is to find an "inner body' you may just percieve that you have found it...then again it may just be a delusion.
    A tingling or a feeling of joy can be a mind-construct just like everything else.
    I am a great admirer of Tolle,but as of yet I've to experience anything within me I can label divine,and I do feel that just maybe letting go of mind identification brings peace,but only by default.
    Sorry for being a skeptic but with all the interest$ out there,you just never know.
     
  5. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    What and when do we "have to give ourself up"?
    What is "the greater one"? The way you talk about it implies duality i.e. "the greater one" and "us". If we are all one, then we are the greater one you talk about. There is no giving ourselves up, simply recognising our true Self for what it is. The only control that goes on is through our true Self becoming attached to the mind, emotions and memory and distracting us from the present moment.

    There's nothing wrong or pointless with being quiet (falling still) as this brings us to the present, and this is where we can truly be aware of the truth.

    However, there's also nothing wrong with using different tools and approaches. I too do different practices such as Reiki and other relaxation techniques. ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  6. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    The word you are looking for is "Satsang".

    Wikipedia sais this about "Satsang":

    Satsang (Sanskrit sat = true, sanga = company) describes in Indian philosophy (1) the company of the "highest truth," (2) the company of a guru, or (3) company with an assembly of persons who listen to, talk about, and assimilate the truth.[1] This typically involves listening to or reading scriptures, reflecting on, discussing and assimilating their meaning, meditating on the source of these words, and bringing their meaning into one’s daily life. Contemporary satsang teachers in the West - frequently coming from the Advaita Vedanta tradition - sometimes mix traditional Eastern knowledge with methods of modern psychology.

    Oftan Satsangs are offered for a minimal price, like 10 euro or 15 euro entrance fee, and you sit with a number of people, and you can listen to the Advaita teacher, or ask questions, depending on the teacher's preference.

    A lot of Advaita teachers say that it takes about 10 to 15 visits to the same or different teachers to "get it".
     
  7. billyboy2674

    billyboy2674 Member

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    Oh and they do get it-an empty pocket.:eek:
     
  8. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    I think its great to be good at philosophics... and if theres not more to it, then its just another way where the end of it shows us again alterntive paths. I dont mind going it, i just want to choose the right one for me, for this particular moment.

    Yes, thank you. I have only one single experience regarding my "real" me, and im still confused and unsure about beeing my own higher self and just not aware of it. But it does make sense and i feel that it is so.
    I just find it really hard to see the meaning of it. If we go this way, we give up our personality, our feelings - everything that makes us human. Ok, theres no suffering on this path, at least not as human do suffer, but why do we own an ego and a mind and why are we here? Does it make sense to buy a car, to find out it consumes gas, step out of it and walk?

    Thanks Edwin! Now i have the right word :)
     
  9. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    haha that's a classic one !

    About 2 weeks ago realisation became complete with me ( strange sentence to say, because that is impossible... There is no me anymore due to realisation... so who is realised... this is the seeming duality that Giles is talking about ) but for sake of conversation we'll leave it at this.

    Has anything changed in my answers ? Did I become less human ? Why hasn't my wife noticed anything ? Surely if I became numb and feelingless, I must have become less human like you said...

    Am I less human now ? Do my answers appear less human ?

    That's why I called this a classic one. I didn't change in any way other than that I don't believe in a seperate me anymore. And due to that, all cramps and fears that used to rule my life disappeared alongside my so called personality.

    A Dutch Advaita teacher once said that the realised or enlightened ones are "painfully human". Meaning that they act like any other person, because they haven't changed. And by being in the moment, an enlightened one will answer fitting to the moment, and that might not be fitting with someone's ego.

    I will repeat what I tried to explain before:
    Ego is thought's RE-action to the action that has allready taken place.
    IT IS SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN that half a second before the part of the brain that thinks words thinks "I am going to grab my glass of lemonade" the part of the brain that steers your arm in order to grab hold of the glass of lemonade becomes active.

    So, if you lose thought, what part of being human or feelings are you giving up ?
     
  10. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    Ok i see, thanks for that. So our creator (ourself) has created those tools for the little consciousness it is putting in to experience those tools. This little consciousness gets easily confused with it, and identifys itself with the tools, which means he seperates from the bigger consciousness and this is the beginning of suffering.

    I guess i have to experience the "bigger consciousness" to not only understand it, but experience it. But it does make sense, nevertheless.
     
  11. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    And herein lies the problem. You cannot be aware of the True Self, you can only BE the True Self. The True Self is the awareness and cannot becomes aware of itself, as any idea of this is duality. It simply has to be it.

    No. Being aware of our True Self allows us to be present, recognise what isn't truth and act rather than re-act. Yes, we can give up the personalities, but why is that a problem? Persona is latin for mask, so our personalities are just masks over our true self that we change for different situations. i.e. your Work personality, your Family personality, your "down the pub with mates" personality etc. None of these personalities are who you truly are, they are fake masks that you wear to try and fit in with society because of fear (mind constructed) of BEing your true self. Giving up feelings is not necessarily a bad thing, especially when those feelings are negative. Recognising that feelings are not our true self, we can let them go and simply be Happiness, Joy, Love and Truth. In a way, these true essences of ourself will be easily recognised by those around us and a true connection is made between us. If you feel that peronality and feelings are what makes us human, then perhaps meditate on this for a while and see if you find it to really be true.

    When we are truly present, we can meet the need of the present moment, without being influenced (or re-acting) by our past ideas and emotions or our personality. There can be nothing more truthful than acting truthfully for the present need. It is when we re-act that conflict occurs.

    We, as One, create the universe. We therefore attach to it, whether that's in a physical sense or mental/emotional sense. This attachment is the ego, the sense of "Me" and "Mine", the concept of creating duality, but this is not who we Truly are.

    Why are we here? Why are we exactly? I am here as my own awareness. This is "here" for me, and, in a non-egotistical sense, my awareness is the centre of the universe. "I" don't go anywhere, "I" bring things into my awareness.

    Yes, if you find the car is not really needed. But if there is a need to be met, then use the car. ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  12. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    wow... I could reflect absolutly everything i discovered about "me" until that point (if i ever find it).

    Ok i seem to understand, thanks!


    What i meant, was not to be quiet, but to try to be quiet. What im doing now in my meditation, is not to meditate anymore. It is pointless in some way... instead im watching my body, every feeling and thought and dont touch it. By doing so, im in the present moment, and those feelings and thoughts slowly disappear (or not).

    It seems like i didnt quite got the point of meditation, as i have this popular picture of it, to be quiet and in a slight trance. Its no trance at all, to be in the "now", isnt it?

    Thankfully i found now the right way to do "nothing"! Im sure you guys gave me the hint before, but it seems i didnt got it.
     
  13. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Yep ! You got it !

    Now expand that practice to daily life :)
     
  14. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    Thanks Edwin, im training myself to stay there!

    :)
     
  15. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    Have you ever experienced that the moment youre watching a feeling
    or your body, your instantly changing something? I thought i watch until
    i recognized that im instinctly doing something with what i watch.
     
  16. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Very good !!!

    another step :)
     
  17. Panthau

    Panthau Member

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    lol!

    so is it possible anyway (or does it make sense) to "not" change something the moment you watch?
     
  18. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    What are you changing ?

    Would the emotion have changed if you wouldn't have placed your attention to it ? Who will know ?
    All things are constantly changing.
    The only thing that will never change is that everything is changing.
    The whole universe is energy, and energy is motion.

    Give me an example of 1 thing, just 1 thing in the entire universe that will never ever change.

    The question you should be asking yourself instead is:
    What do you want to do with what you are watching ?

    The thing you are watching might be an emotion, or a thought or something, or a new car, or a big pile of unwashed clothes that you should have washed 3 days ago.
    All these things are there in this moment. If all electrons would instantly stop turning around the nucleus in all atoms, the universe as we know it would end . When people talk about "the creation of the universe" they are talking about the past, the Big Bang theory and stuff. But they fail to see that in this moment, the Now, all things are constantly creating themselves. The electron is still rotating, we are still here because of that.

    When you say that you seem to want to do something with what you are watching, is that instinct ? Or is it thought ?

    You may not be ready for this yet, but here are some questions:

    We breathe. We usually say that we are breathing.
    But the thought "I breathe" is that breathing ?

    Your eyes see. The thought "I see" can that thought see anything ?

    Your ears hear. The thought "I hear" can that thought hear anything ?

    Thoughts are just translations of that which is happening by itself.
    Your seeing can never be done by the mind. Thoughts can't see.

    Do you see that thoughts have nothing to do with what is going on ?

    Ok, then let's turn it around:

    Does your eye tell you "I see" ?

    Does your ear tell you "I hear" ?

    They can't, can they. They just see, they just hear.
    And afterwords, mind translates this seeing and hearing that happens without your interferance as "I see". A concept. Actually 2 concepts.
    The concept that the thought can actually see, and that the thought "I" is who you are. But you can't be that thought. You are the one thinking it.

    So, when you are thinking " I am sad "....
    Those are concepts as well, as are all thoughts.

    Now this one: " I finished my work one hour early yesterday "
    The "I" in this statement, is that who you are, or who you believe you are ?
    Maybe "I" can refer to your body. But where in your body can you pinpoint where you are ? Are you in the hands ? The head ? Are you only there ? not anywhere else ?
    Or it can point to your mind. Your mind is a manifestation of thoughts, beliefs, and we just proved that they can never be you.

    So, what's left ? Who finished work early yesterday ?
    If you say "the Self" that is just a label made by mind. A thought. Can't be you.
    Every thought you have is a concept. The thought "I" is based on a belief.

    There is only one thing certain without having to believe in it:
    The fact that you exist. You are here. You can't believe in the fact that you exist, nor do you need to, that would be rediculous because you know this.

    This knowing is the same as seeing, hearing. It is there without having to think about it. Every thought comes afterwords, it is a re-action to that which allready occurred.
    Thought claims ownership on something that has occurred by itself.
    Let this sink in for a moment.

    Everything happens by itself. You are not doing anything. Everything that is done, is done by the illusive, undescribable Self.
    Every time thought tells you you should not have done that, or you did that very well... Is not only not who you are, but also something that thought didn't do. Thought does nothing. It can't. It's thought.
    A tool handed to the Self for 2 purposes: To program new functions to the Self ( in other words, it enables you to study on something new until you do it without thinking <--- !!! ), and to solve problems like equasions, mathematical problems, language problems.
    These are the only reason why mind is there.
    But, since there is this erronimous belief that mind is also the "I", it feels the need to feel guilty, to feel ashamed, to feel sorry for things it supposedly did.
    But thought does nothing. The "I" doesn't even exist except as a concept in the mind.

    Yay ! Another monsterpost ! :D Now where did that come from ?

    "God is in all people, but not all people are in God; this is why they suffer"
    Ramakrishna
     
  19. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    In the present moment nothing changes, everything simply is.
    Change can only occur when we become attached to something and determine a difference between it in one present moment and another present moment. This is our attachment to time and our desire to identify with things through the nature of their changing rather than what they simply are.

    If you truly observe something you see it as it truly is, not how it was, not how it will be and not how it has changed.

    A thought arises, you observe that thought. Then another thought arises and you observe that thought. Only when you hold onto the first thought does it appear that the thought has changed; yet the second thought is not the first so the change is not truth. Truth only lies in the present moment.

    ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  20. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    My Self.

    I am, and always have been my Self. That will never change.

    ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     

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