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Anticipation

Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Mr Monkey, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Of course you wouldn't think I would let you get off the hook that easy ;)

    These are numbers and papers. They might provide proof of existence for the government, but if by chance all these documents and computer records were to be destroyed, would you cease to exist ?
    And what if in a few years you would wake up from a coma, realising that the entire life you thought you were living was a dream, and all the friends family you thought were aware of you were just figments of your imagination ?

    Or to take it a bit deeper, you see people you call friends and family moving around, reacting, and you base your assumption on that movement that they have a similar world inside their heads like you have. But you can't be sure ! You can never know what happens in another person's head.
    All these things might seem far fetched, but there is nothing you can do to prove me wrong in my assumptions.
    These rather silly examples aren't meant to start a discussion. I am just trying to show you how your body isn't who you are.

    Logic doesn't apply in this case.

    In fact, people are reacting to your body, and your body can't be who you are.
    If you cut off your arms and legs, your body will be completely different, but that won't change who you are right ?
    Check out this video: YouTube - No Arms No Legs No Worries
    Reactions ? That is just a very complicated process of calculations made by the brain, and when the calculation has been done, the result is presented in your conscious self. You are under the assumption that it is you reacting, but in fact it is your brain doing stuff, including producing thoughts claiming to be you.

    You don't control your thoughts, thoughts come up by themselves, I thought we established that allready. Thoughts come up by themselves, and you observe them.
    Didn't you check out this : http://www.project-meditation.org/c...irit/5200-scientific-peek-into-free-will.html ? Kauil did an excellent job posting this a week or so ago.
    Thanks to his post I can give you scientific proof that what you say is wrong !

    -----------------------------------

    All the examples you gave me are external, the outside world.
    I am able to counter-prove any example you give me from the physical world.
    But I am not here to prove that to you, I want you to look within instead of without.

    So, I would like you to direct your attention to yourself.

    I don't need 3 more examples, just try to come up with one example this time.
    But I don't want an external example. The proof doesn't have to be scientific.
    And don't over-complicate it ( your brain works too well, it would be better if you were stupid :p )
    Just don't make it of the outside world, the world of atoms, thoughts and emotions.

    Good luck ! :)
     
  2. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Or try the exercises on the Headless Way website...

    The Headless Way -- Douglas Harding

    ;)
     
  3. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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  4. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Set out below is the inquiry that began to set me free. well not free, I still oscillate, but the sense of separation is slowly dispersing. I'd liked to share it, apologies for high jacking Edwin. :)

    In the course of one day, thousands of thoughts within our story arise. Yet if you can be aware (notice) that not one of them, standing alone, is the actually you (ego, self etc.).
    Look for the self in each thought. Is it there? Is the thought, “I’m XX years old” the self?
    How about the thought, “I’m Paul?”
    How about the thought, “I’m having a bad day,” or “I’ve been depressed?”
    Are any one of those thoughts the real you?
    If this separate self is real, you ought to be able to find it in one of those thoughts. Or one of those thoughts are to be pointing to the real you. But none of them point to it. They simply arise to an impersonal awareness that sees them.

    So where is the real YOU? Go look for it.

    Some pointers
    Maybe it is one of the other thousand thoughts that arise.
    Maybe it’s a thought of the past or a thought of the future.
    Maybe the thought arises, “I’m a collection of all these thoughts?” But are you that thought?
    Are you the thought, “I’m a collection?”
    Do any of these single thoughts sum you up or refer to your actual self?
    No, each is just a thought coming and going.

    Or is the self in an emotion?
    Sensations?


    And so on, there is a lot more but that's enough to get you started :)


    Back to you Edwin ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  5. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Lol poor Paul, we are flooding a monkey's mind...

    I have never ever experienced any place before where the guru's were "competing" over a student instead of the other way around.

    I won't be childish and say "One guru at a time" but maybe, in order not to cause monkey mind overload, we can agree to do one method at a time ? :D
     
  6. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Deep and sincere apologies for treading on toes. :eek: I wasn’t aware that this was a student/"GURU" thread.


    Peace :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2011
  7. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    HAHAHA nah that's quite allright, I was kidding m8 !! please DO add, it is after all a public forum !!! If you have a contribution you are allways welcome !

    That's why I added the :D it was all written in good fun, no pun intended.

    oh and thanks for your contribution, it really is very helpful, I was just a tad worried that Paul might lose focus if he had several methods at the same time since I allready gave one, and Giles contributed to that with "the headless way" which in a way, is a method itself.

    So, apologies from me are in order, for making you feel unwanted in a public thread. Kiss !:eek:

    EDIT: When Paul has answered the question ( if he can ) and has checked out the "headless way", Paul could try your method as well, it is a very effective one.
    It's impossible to show what "it" is, but it's quite easy to show what it's not.
    Reminding yourself of what it's not all of the time is bound to lead you to what it is.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2011
  8. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Ahhh, thank you :) but no kissing please ;)
     
  9. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    About the word Guru and my viewpoint on the term

    I felt the need to clarify the word Guru a bit, especially after Karmoh's reaction:

    There is a slight hint of hidden sarcasm in his sentence, and he is very right to have reservations towards people claiming to be a guru. Deepest respect !

    You see, and Karmoh is aware of this, "I am a guru" is impossible, as Guru is without "I".

    I don't think of a Guru as a person.
    There is only that which we are, we are One.

    As soon as a contribution on the forum has been made that is without the "I" that comes from ego, and those can be recognised quite easily, the purity that is the source of us all shines through, and that is what I like to call "Guru".

    In the reaction that Karmoh misinterpreted as a serious one ( never take me serious haha ) I was joking about guru's competing over a student, but in fact, I was referring to Karmoh as well, as his post was also ringing with this truth. One Guru, speaking from several sources. And one silly bugger from the Netherlands :p
     
  10. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Gents,

    A quick thanks for taking the time out to give me some more pointers, I appreciate that I’m being somewhat hard work at the moment… part of me feels I should be sitting facing the wall with my ‘D’ hat on :eek:, but I’m hopeful I’ll crack this soon :). I’ll work with each of the suggestions and see how I get on.



    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  11. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hello again :),

    I’ve thought about it and fair do’s, I can’t give you that proof....

    I haven’t had a good read of the headless site yet but I intend to start next week. Also I’ll be printing off Karmoh’s suggestion as a reminder to try and incorporate that type of enquiring into my day to day living.

    Paul
     
  12. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Just to refresh our memory,
    you are responding to what I said before:
    Heh, funny isn't it, when you really start to explore you find out that you can't seem to prove that you exist...

    And at the same time, it is also impossible to deny. What I said is nonsense, because your existence is evident: You are there !

    If someone would ask me what kind of person I am, wouldn't be able to answer that. Am I supposed to give a summary of things I have done in the past, or things I seem to like at this moment ? Am I supposed to explain people what my self-image is ? I don't have a self-image !
    What if I tell people I like banana's, and tomorrow I suddenly don't ?
    Should I change my self-image ?

    And besides, if I want a more accurate self-image, I better ask my friends !
    I have a friend that is very accurate at summarising all my flaws, and I rely on him to do that. Of course, his image is based on things in the past, and it seems reasonable to expect that my behaviour won't change in the future.
    But he keeps ringing me, visiting me, inviting me to his birthday... So why would he do that if he has such a negative image of me ?
    And why do others seem to want to ignore my seemingly apparant flaws, and summarise all my good points ? And why is it that their summaries, both good points and flaws, are completely different from all the different self-images I have had in the past ?

    The Paul that I said doesn't exist, the one you couldn't prove to exist... Could that just be a self-image as well ?
    And what if that self-image was removed ?

    If you no longer expect certain things from yourself, what would happen ?

    Would you die ?
    Would you suddenly change your ways and become a totally different person ?
    Or no person at all ?

    Doctors say that our personality develops around the age of 3... didn't you exist before that ?

    or maybe the question should be: If your self-image, Paul, the personality you seem to be, would disappear, what is left ?

    after this rant, you are ready for "the headless way" ;)
     
  13. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    I certainly don't consider it a rant. I'll give the headless way a good read through next week, try some of the exercises and see how I get on (whilst also pondering above).

    As ever, thanks!
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  14. MetaCognition

    MetaCognition Member

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    It is funny how attached beings become to the things they are not.
     
  15. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    A student asked Huan Po, Zen master from China some questions:

    Q: Mind is the Buddha; but it is not clear as to what sort of mind is meant by this ‘Mind which is the Buddha.’
    A: How many minds have you got?
    Q: But is the Buddha the ordinary mind or the Enlightened mind?
    A: Where on earth do you keep your ‘ordinary mind’ and your ‘Enlightened mind’?
    Q: In the teaching of the Three Vehicles it is stated that there are both. Why does your Reverence deny it?
    A: In the teaching of the Three Vehicles it is clearly explained that the ordinary and Enlightened minds are illusions. You don’t understand. All this clinging to the idea of things existing is to mistake vacuity for the truth. How can such conceptions not be illusory?
    Being illusory, they hide Mind from you. If you would only rid yourselves of the concept of ordinary and Enlightened, you would find that there is no other Buddha than the Buddha in your own Mind. When Bodhidharma came from the West, he just pointed out that the substance of which all people are composed is the Buddha.
    You people go on misunderstanding; you hold to concepts such as ‘ordinary’ and ‘Enlightened’ directing your thoughts outwards where they gallop like horses! All this amounts to beclouding your own minds! So I tell you Mind is the Buddha. As soon as thought or sensation arises, you fall into dualism.
    Beginningless time and the present moment are the same. There is no this and no that. To understand this truth is called complete and unexcelled Enlightenment.


    Recorded by P’ei Hsiu (858)
    Excerpt from ''The Zen Teaching of Huang-po – On the Transmission of Mind ''
    Translated by John Blofeld.
     
  16. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    good lesson :) Stop separating and be free now.That which we are trying to become, already is!
     
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    The biggest problem I came across was not knowing what to look for.
    Look inside, my teacher said, but all I could "see" inside was my thoughts and emotions. And in those rare occasions where mind was quiet, I still felt all the sensations of the body.
    What was I supposed to find ?
    How could I notice my "true self" with all that distraction ?

    But the funny thing is, the fact that I could notice those thoughts, feel those emotions, feel the sensations of the body actually meant that every sensation lead me to the truth instead of away from it.
    What is needed to see a thought ? Someone to see it !
    What is needed to feel an emotions ? Someone to feel it !
    What is needed to feel a sensation of the body ? Someone to feel it !

    But we have grown accustomed to watch the emotion, and then concentrate on the emotion. That is looking out.
    That's what my teacher meant with looking inside.

    At a certain time that knowledge hit solid ground in me, but now I wanted to "see" my true self in order to "find" it.
    Unfortunately it took me about a year or 2 to realise that there was nothing to find because that what was observing allready was me...
     
  18. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Hi Edwin,
    :)
    Yes, it is one of our great mysteries; our very survival depends on our powers of reasoning, yet over eons we have allowed the power of thought to veil what really is. What a blessing to have realized that the flowering of consciousness happens only in my absence.

    Once I stopped believing what I was reading or hearing, and I gently investigated what was happening in my head and in my emotional body. How seeking approval, attention, praise, or acknowledgment from others, it was in those moments, the realisation came that I was actually watching my own self-centeredness.

    __________________

    My teachings are easy to understand and easy to put into practice. Yet your intellect will never grasp them, and if you try to practice them, you’ll fail.
    – Lao-tzu, Tao Te Ching2
    You are what observes, not what you observe.
    – Buddha
    What we are looking for … is what is looking.
    – St. Francis of Assisi
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2011

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