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Anticipation

Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Mr Monkey, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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  2. Midnight

    Midnight Member

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    That was a really good read, thanks for the link. After reading it though, I can see there might be a problem with this statement:

    Saying "I still exist without the I concept" is contradictory isn't it?

    What I meant to say was that consciousness is still there and doesn't need that thought to be there...

    When they say "I do not exist" what exactly are they talking about? The I concept of the mind, or what?
     
  3. Kauil

    Kauil Member

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    Midnight: I'm not sure why, but your post made me think of the falling tree analogy.

    If a tree falls down in the woods but there is no-one there to witness it, does it still fall down?

    Does anything happen without an experiencer?

    Do we exist in the world or does the world exist in us?

    I guesssssss whatever the "I" ends up being, beyond words, it doesn't require concepts to exist as it does.

    Am I wrong or is wrong me? lol
     
  4. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    I couldn’t agree more. I hope that my original comments didn’t come across as a rant against religion; it wasn’t meant to be at all. More just trying to emphasise your point that just because someone knows the words/scriptures doesn’t mean they feel the essence of it.

    Thanks for the links :), I gave the manuscript a go (quite a chunky beast!) but fear I’ve hit a bit of oil on the first corner…..:eek:

    Now this one had me scratching my head :confused:, maybe just terminology or me not appreciating the full context… My understanding is that ‘consciousness is that in which everything exists’, yet this is talking of something that is outside/beyond consciousness?

    OK, I’ve split this into two because Part 1 I get (I think :rolleyes:), when you’re conscious with no thought your in the void, happy days. But…. Part 2 again suggests that there is something outside the void….. which goes back to my confusion above :confused:.

    I’m happy to wait and try the meditation once I have read through the manuscript but would you say that is essential?

    I’ve read through the Rajivji stuff, fully agree with you & Midnight – very good read indeed. I just wanted to clarify a couple things to be sure I’ve got the right end of the stick.

    Is this simply saying that you should accept your life situation and current thoughts/feelings?

    Endeavour to observe thoughts, feelings, experiences and surroundings as much as possible?

    Wow, that nails what ‘oneness’ is for me.

    This is that the mental construct “Paul” disappears a night, then is reconstructed when I wake up.

    This makes total sense to me and I know where your coming from, but it just leads back to my understanding some of this mentally, but not feeling it (or may it’s me not noticing when I experience it :eek: :eek:?)

    Enough from me for now me thinks :).

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  5. Kauil

    Kauil Member

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    Last edited: Dec 30, 2010
  6. Midnight

    Midnight Member

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    Hey Paul,

    It's okay if you don't feel this realization. Understanding it mentally is a great step. The full realization will inevitably hit you, but all there is left to do in this moment is to accept that you don't feel it right now. :)

    Interesting thoughts...

    My way of looking at it would be that it does indeed fall down, because regardless of it being witnessed by us, we are all one in the same. Life envelops everything. The body is an illusion as a boundary separating us from everything. If it isn't seen, then maybe something is blocking it from being seen (I am implying that awareness of everything going on in the universe is possible, but maybe not at this stage. What a strange thought, eh? :D)
     
  7. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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  8. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Rajiv is a funny guy.

    He is the student of Ed Muzika, and as soon as he fully understood it and Ed told him that he could start teaching, he started teaching exactly opposite to what Ed Muzika tought.

    This seems to be very contradictary, but in fact it isn't.

    It is just a completely different road from an entirely different direction towards the same common ground.

    Ed and Rajiv make sure that everybody reads this before they listen to satsangs:

    "It is very important to understand that the answers that are given each Satsang must be taken in the full context of that Satsang AND that Edji's or Rajivji's answers may appear unusual, or seem to contradict answers to similar questions in the past.

    Partly, they are answering each person based on their current level of understanding, and more importantly, are telling them what they think they need to hear at that time. Also, realize that all general statements contain within them their own contradictions, and most Satsang statements are general statements due to limitations of time.

    Therefore, a general statement one week may appear to contradict another general statement of another week. In the largest sense, there is no truth at all, but until one awakens, or until one's self-inquiry has reached deeper levels, words, and the necessary distortion of words, are still one of the main ways a teacher still teaches.

    So don't hang onto any one sentence because in a month's time you will find a contradiction. You need to go beyond the words with limitations in meaning and intent, by just listening without interpretation or dwelling on the words.

    Also, Edji and Rajivji like to joke sometimes and don't take those answers seriously!"


    Try not to split hairs on the texts itself, but try to understand that which is beyond words, which can never be understood by mind.
    The truth can't be found in words. Only in that which the words point to.
    Words may tell you on the sign that Oregon is 15 miles with the next left turn, but the words itself are not Oregon. Don't stop to stare at the sign and think: "Oh, so that's Oregon...".

    A teacher that I think very highly of in the Netherlands compared it to trying to explain in words Mozart's Requiem. It may take more than a 1000 words, and still it can never be compared with just simply listening to the music.
     
  9. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    One bridge too far.

    Try to concentrate on consciousness first, this step can't be skipped.

    Everything that can be observed, is not what you are, but what you are observing.
    Most people arrive at some sort of Void-like experience and think that they have hit rock-bottom, and leave it at that. But experiences come and go, and thus can not be who you are.
    So think of this as simply a warning not to quit too soon.
    Nothing is essential, but it just might be that there is just one sentence in the manuscript that rings with you. Whatever touches the inner guru...
    Just make sure that you don't compare your own journey with that of Rajiv. Every human being takes a different path.
    Yep and yep ;)

    Not just sleep, when you are reading a book, watching TV, doing some work, sweeping the floor, when you are lost in thoughts...
    Every time that you don't think of yourself, you are gone.
    And then you think a thought with the "I" in it, and suddenly you have become that (same ???)person again...
    Try the meditation of Ed Muzika now, and you will at least feel something :)

    But this feeling is also just something that will pass.
     
  10. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Or maybe your body, my body, the body of the tree, the world, air, everything solid, fluid, or gas, hot or cold, is just energy ? In between atoms, inside atoms, everything is just empty space, with energy behaving like matter giving us the illusion that the brick is solid, while in fact 99,9999 % is empty space ?

    Without life, does the Universe exist or did the universe experience birth not at the big bang but with the first life-form ?

    There is no spoon ? :confused:

    :p
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2011
  11. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Anyone seen or heard from Paul (Mr. Monkey) ? :confused:
     
  12. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hi Edwin,

    I’m still knocking about – I normally check in for a read of the forum at least once every couple of days but I tend to want to consider my responses (especially to this thread) which is why there is normally a gap between updates (also on this occasion I’ve been a bit side tracked by other stuff as well).

    So please don’t take the gaps in my responses as any form of lack of interest, if anything it’s the opposite, I’ll respond properly soon :).

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  13. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Ah great, I was a little worried because I didn't respond quite that soon last time for just about the same reasons :D

    Take your time, just wanted to make sure I didn't go stepping on somebody's feelings without knowing it ;)

    Giles-like-hugs,

    Edwin
     
  14. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hello again :) (at last!),

    First off apologies for the delay in responding, this month and the start of next are pretty busy as I’m putting in groundwork to set things up for what should/hopefully be quite an important year for me.

    Absolutely not, you’d have to work harder than that to stop me asking questions :p

    Anyhooo - I’ve managed to grab some time this evening which I’ve spent rereading this thread and also trying out the mp3 you suggested.

    Thanks for the encouragement. I still feel like there some bits I don’t get, hence my continued discussion with Edwin, but I’m not beating myself about it :).

    Guilty as charged :eek:, but in my defence it’s a touch counter-intuitive trying to understand something without drilling down into the detail (after years of being taught that’s how to do it). But I know…. The answers are not in the mind…. :rolleyes:

    Hmmm…. Now this is something that is said quite a lot but still doesn’t sit well with me, things being ‘beyond words’. I was going to say, is this a type of ‘spacious feeling’ but then it struck me that explanation wasn’t exactly beyond words… But I suspect that’s where you’re trying to guide me though, to work with internal sensations (I hesitate to use the word feelings) rather than try to analyze too much with the mind?

    Yep, am with you (Whoo-hoo! :D)

    This was interesting on the reread; I guess I’ve thought that I should feel great being in ‘the now’ as (in my mind) it should be a nice spiritual place… In fact its just acknowledging what is going on in the present moment “I feel rubbish” (or great or whatever), try to see the space around the thoughts/feelings and then try to look for calm practical steps to help remedy the situation (if its ‘bad’) or keep things in perspective (if its ‘good’). Would you say that’s a fair assessment?

    I tried the Edji guided meditation, but unfortunately it didn’t do too much for me. I accept I’ve only listened to it once so I can’t expect a “ta-da – all fixed” effect, so I’ve book marked it and will give it a few more goes.

    As ever, thanks :),
    Paul
     
  15. Midnight

    Midnight Member

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    You got it, dude! :D

    I had the exact same feeling about the now too, when I first began. "If I could just focus on right now, everything would be solved. Eckhart Tolle said so, right?!" The basis of what he is saying is when the moment is accepted unconditionally (as it should, because there's no reason to deny what is already happening) you're at peace. There is no battle to be fought with what is, there is just what is happening at the current moment. It is all good. Emotions are there to help you out. Listen to their message. You don't have to act on every little message, but you have to listen, or they'll keep talking (and you accumulate a busy mind).

    My advice is not to try and see the space around these things, but just realize what thoughts and emotions are. Tools, which you are "using". The awareness of the space between you and them shall arise on its own.
     
  16. michael.i

    michael.i Member

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    Feel Grateful

    Hello Mr. Monkey, this is my very first post here on PM. I just want to give you a tip. Stop trying to figure things out, that is your biggest problem. Let go of wanting to know. If you want to think do it emotionally (just watch your emotions, feel grateful for any and everything). Thats it.
     
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Like you guessed, the Edji meditation is not an easy fix.
    Edji meditated like that for about 20 years before the moment of realization came.

    Meditation for 20 years, every day, for about half an hour a day.

    Compare that with your one try ;)

    I am not trying to discourage you, it could be that you get it in a week. But for that you have to try again.


    I have to clarify some things for you so that you understand why I have started a new approach for you.

    You see, at first you had to know certain things about what road Advaita takes in order to help people to "get it" and while that still was important I was happy to go into detail for you with every question.
    But now you at least should have a general idea of what Advaita is about, even if you don't feel that you "get it".

    This information was important for your mind, for you to memorise and ponder over.
    But mind can know a lot about anything, but it hasn't got the faintest idea of who you are. It is simply a tool that works in consciousness.

    The texts I am giving you now are not directed towards your mind, but to that which is beyond it.
    Even if your mind doesn't get it for another 100 years, that which is observing the mind allready knows. I am simply drawing that out.

    So feeding your mind even more info doesn't work anymore.
    I now have to encourage you to try to see the bigger picture.
    The Edji meditation can help.

    I am no longer going to answer questions directly. I am going to put you to work. This is as much an experiment to me as it is to you, so please humor me:


    You do not exist.
    I hereby declare that Paul is a figment of your imagination, and you don't exist at all.

    I urge you to try and prove me wrong. Give me proof that Paul does exist !
    I don't need an essay, just think of 3 good reasons why you think that you do exist.
     
  18. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    :), its seems it takes time to sink in, but thankfully it does eventually!


    I’ll be giving it more than another go, I've set it as a reminder to try from time to time. Also I remember being taken aback at the start of it when he mentioned the amount of time he’d put into it himself. When I said I didn’t get much out of it I was meaning more any sense of getting into it rather than a full “your now enlightened” . I’ve found that guided meditations don’t always do much for me (including the enlightenQ one plus other hypnosis ones I’ve used), my mind tends just to want to play silly bu**ers through them :(.

    I’m more than happy to try coming at this from a different angle, but….haven’t I agreed with

    By stating:

    :confused:
     
  19. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    hehe yes you have.

    But I need to be convinced that this comes from you, not from your mind ;)

    Now stop allowing your mind to come up with excuses, and try the excercise.
    That is, if you still want me to help you.

    This is where it gets serious, no more playing around.

    It is impossible to get help from any teacher without a deep trust from the student. A teacher is only as good as his student. I can talk for hours and you can listen, but you won't learn until you try. This is why schools have homework !

    I promise not to take advantage of your trust, and doing this publicly in the forums is even better, as other forummembers can keep a watchful eye on me as well ;)

    The excercise is meant to direct your mind towards the place beyond it.



    Sooooooo.........

    3 reasons please :D
     
  20. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Sound fine to me, I've just spent my evening stroll mulling this over, in response:

    • National Insurance Number, Passport, Driving Licence, Qualifications - Other records
    • My family/friends are aware of me
    • My reactions (in that they will be specific to me in any given situation)
     

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