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Anticipation

Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Mr Monkey, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    For once, I'll try and keep my answers short and to the point as Edwin has already spoken wonderfully on the matters.

    A true Guru will answer, any questions you have, with truth. A true Guru does not impose their knowledge on others, hence why Edwin says that a Guru will not go out to find students, but students will come to them.

    In my philosophy class last night we were read a quite from Shri Shantananda Saraswati which was something along the lines of "I will answer questions from anyone, from any background, from the East or the West" (or something along those lines; illustrating that there is no judgement or differentiation or duality)

    When you look at an apple, do you see the apple in the same way that I see an apple? You may see it as a tasty piece of food. I may not like apples (I do really), but I see the beauty of the shape and the natural wonder of the creation of the apple as the fruit of the tree. You have created your perception of the apple, and I have mine. The universe we percieve is of our own creation.

    'The' universe will still exist. Your minds perception of the universe, as defined by your senses (the physical body) will cease to exist.

    Yes. 'The' universe would exist.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  2. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Hi Edwin & Giles
    Are you a double act? :D:)
    I read both your posts with gusto and fully understand your explanations.Hence I haven't quoted as I agree.But here’s my dilemma, I agree with it all.

    I can listen/watch a discourse by Ajahn Brahm on you tube and be totally absorbed and fully understand his understanding of the dharma.
    I can read Jack Kornfield and fully agree with his take on Buddhist psychology in the west.
    I’ve read through a lot of the links Edwin posted by Radha Ma & Jan Koehoorn, and I get it.
    I can read Hare Krishna text and Sri Chinmoy teachings and be as one
    Thich Nhat Hanh allows me to see clearly the things I already know.
    Also If you also take in to account all the gurus I have read (I posted their names previously)

    Am I grasping because I lack confidence in my own understanding?
    Am I easily pleased or do I have a deeper understanding?
    Am I at a level where all are right as there can be no wrong, but I haven’t realised or cannot articulate what my realization is?

    :) Straight away I see the flaws in my use Of "I" but one has too doesn't one:)

    I just heard something that made me sit up straight.
    Mooji - "Mind wants to go shopping and come back with enlightenment"
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2010
  3. olmate

    olmate Member

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    Hi Karmoh,

    It is an interesting struggle. An exercise my Teacher suggested that be tried was to try to avoid the use of the words "I, me, mine, etc." for as long as possible in oral conversations, writings and after a while even in thought.

    Its tough - but does highlight the extent of attachment.

    A further context on resonating with the various perspectives of the Masters is that perhaps, just maybe, they are all describing the same panorama... but just describing it through their eyes...

    Nothing but the best...

    Olmate
     
  4. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Thanks for doing that.

    I’ve started with a few comments on the posts a few days ago, then a few lower down on your last post to me re picking out the bits and explaining my thoughts.

    How very interesting, a refreshing alternative perspective – no guilt or ‘should’ behind the decision.’

    Yes I can see it being very wrong to not follow your own path, but there is a burden on finding your own truth…. How do I know its right? Also am I (and quite a few others) not being taken down the path of others truth to gain enlightenment (once that is achieved my own path would be crystal clear).


    Yep, definitely needed that slap ;)

    Due to the above slap, this now makes total sense :D


    Ok, now onto the most up to date post:

    This same quote also confused me, I thought one of the fundamentals of understanding was that the mind is the ego/‘mental picture’ and logical thought – but yet here Radha Ma is suggesting that the mind is responsible for creating the universe and life? Maybe just something lost in translation or I’ve got the wrong end of the stick.

    This follows on from above quote and seems to conflict with it? Here you are suggesting that your sensory perception (and you own internal perception of those senses, “is my blue your red?”) creates the universe you live in.

    Yep, this make sense in that the mental construct is created in the morning and dies at night, but was never physically born so can never die.

    So when you’re enlightened you’ll witness your body having pain inflicted, but you just accept it because it doesn’t affect the observer?

    I can see that without a reference point of a mental construct ‘me’ then there wouldn’t be a person doing at such, but there would be a being doing it, the ‘in the moment me’. I can’t see how that me isn’t making decisions.

    It sounds very fatalistic to say “your not in control, just sit back an enjoy the ride”, no matter what decisions I make it’s a pre-planned route? If I’m not making decisions (with or without the drive for those decisions coming from my egoic desires), how on earth can I (or anyone else) be held accountable? Taking that thinking to its extreme (or possibly natural conclusion), how can there be any basis for a judiciary or laws?

    Without the ‘me that is typing this’ wanting to type it, it wouldn’t be typed – so a decisions has been made to type it, I haven’t just gone onto autopilot and done it. A decision was made to spell check it before submitting it, etc etc – none of this I needed to do.

    I’m stuck at the point where it seems to me the World might as well be of robot land with a load of R2D2’s and C3PO’s if we didn’t have free will. If someone blew the planet up then in this context they weren’t naughty for doing so, as they had been destined to do that from birth…… This has ramifications on moral, historical (in that the way they are viewed) and future events.

    I can see that the reference point of the doer, my mental construct isn’t making the decisions. But you must base your actions (to some extent) on past experience and future possibilities, otherwise the same mistakes would be made continually and progress would never be achieved…..

    Just before positing I saw this:
    This has echo’s of something that has been rattling around in my head. No matter how well the subject is conceptually understood, it is said that we have to wait for grace before we ‘get it fully’, which suggests that the knowledge isn’t the key. But many people seem to find there way to grace through knowledge. What’s the score there? :confused:

    Congrats and best wishes :)
     
  5. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Hi Olmate,

    self will give your suggestion a go :p:)
    Thanks for the pointer regarding the Masters......you are close to the truth!
     
  6. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Nah, just the universe that you percieve as real. This includes all your sensory perceptions as well as your thoughts and ideas about the universe.

    Even when mental constructs are completely gone ( and this usually is around 10 years after the moment of awakening, so don't go thinking that I am allready there ) your sensory perception begins when you wake up, and ends when you go to sleep.
    But you can only wake up again because even tho all sensory perceptions are shut down during dreamless sleep, consciousness is still there. If consciousness would leave the body, the body would die. Consciousness doesn't need the body, but the body needs consciousness.
    When you dream, the dream is played like a movie on the moviescreen of consciousness. When you are awake, it's just another movie being played from the perspective of consciousness.
    When you are in dreamless sleep, the movie screen of consciousness is still there, but there is just no movie playing.
    Looks like the words are beginning to sink in !

    I once read about a guy who after awakening wanted to experiment with pain, and he asked the dentist not to sedate him.
    He just needed to concentrate on who he really was, and because there was no "me" having pain, just pain being observed by consciousness, he wasn't troubled by it.
    To you this might sound amazing, but to me this sounds logical. On the other hand, it also sounds logical to not ask for pain when it isn't needed ;)

    LOL !!! Now mind just replaces the "Normal me" with another mental construct, called "in the moment me"
    Consciousness, the witness, the observer isn't you, it is you and me and the world and the universe and everything within the universe and without it.
    Do you consider me as you as well when you talk about "in the moment me" ?
    Ok, back to basics again.

    Saying "you are not in control" isn't wrong because of the "no control" part, it is wrong because of the "you" part.
    There is no "you" just as there is no "me".
    How can "I" be in control if there is no "I" ?

    So who is in control ? There is no answer to this question, and it probably can never be answered.
    If it makes you feel comfortable, just think that God is in control. But in reality, we will never know.

    Ha !
    There it is !
    It is not a "me that is typing this", it is mind that is typing this.
    What brought this typing about ?
    Attention towards a subject within consciousness.
    The attention towards the topic triggered mind to produce thoughts, opinions, and when these were observed by consciousness, and attention towards certain opinions triggered new opinions, or the next, or more about the same opinion.
    None of these thoughts were made by you, no "made by monkey" stamp on it.

    In fact, saying that you think the thoughts is selling the mind short.
    And then the "you typing it".

    If you really are typing it, did you really know exactly what muscles needed to contract, and which muscles needed to relax in order for your arms and fingers to move ?
    No, but " you " learned how to do that at a young age.
    Sure " you " did.
    Just the fact that you are used to those muscles behaving on autopilot when a general movement is required, does that mean that you programmed that ?
    Yeah, but I visualised that movement in my head !
    Sure, and the visualisation doesn't require the mind ? What can consciousness really visualise ?

    Am I making you crazy allready ? ( the answer is no :D )
    Pfff come on, free will...

    It even sounds rediculous.
    When my youngest child wants something, it doesn't make her free, it narrows her to an obnoxious child that keeps pushing me into buying her that doll that she just has to have.

    Free will....

    tsss....
    Thanks !

    I will leave it here, because it is really late and I need to sleep.

    :)
     
  7. harijan

    harijan Member

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    Thank you so much for your time and insights, much appreciated.:cool:
     
  8. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    LOL! It does seem that way sometimes, though we've never met. Perhaps we're just both in touch with each other as a Oneness. ;)
     
  9. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Here's a quote we got given during our Philosophy class the other night and I thought it was a beautiful description of oneness, and pertinent to this discussion...

    Taken from "The Man Who Wanted To Meed God" p.99, a part where there is a discussion on the absolute being in everything...

    (I think the word 'punished' comes across a little harsh and has perhaps been lost in translation somewhere, so I think it reads better if you take that as "cause yourself suffering")

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  10. harijan

    harijan Member

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    Hi Giles, I would just like to send a belated thank you for your reply to my post where I expressed my difficulty in comprehending the statement that "the mind is a powerful thing, it has created the entire universe and all the myriad life forms you see everywhere".

    Quote from GilesC
    "When you look at an apple, do you see the apple in the same way that I see an apple? You may see it as a tasty piece of food. I may not like apples (I do really), but I see the beauty of the shape and the natural wonder of the creation of the apple as the fruit of the tree. You have created your perception of the apple, and I have mine. The universe we percieve is of our own creation."

    Yes, I agree, we may perceive the universe differently, but what I was trying to establish is, whether our perception (or mind) creates the universe, or, the universe exists and we perceive it in our own fashion?

    Quote from GilesC
    "'The' universe will still exist. Your minds perception of the universe, as defined by your senses (the physical body) will cease to exist."

    Yes, that is how I see it too.

    And finally I asked "If I were enlightened and not living through the mind would the universe still exist?" and you answered "Yes. 'The' universe would exist."

    Yes, I agree, from my perspective.

    I guess that trying to understand things through the mind, as opposed to understanding things through the no-mind, can create problems in understanding.

    I would like to say thank you to you for all your contributions on this forum, for my part, much appreciated.

    Cheerz,
    Hari. :)
     
  11. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    The understanding of no-mind as you call it is always there in the background, it's mind that is trying to interfere with it.

    To understand the difference, imagine the following situation.

    When you are driving your car, it sometimes happens that your mind is busy with a lot of other things than driving.
    You might have an important meeting in an hour that you feel like rehearsing, or maybe the arguement you had with your partner just before you left home is still going through your head... stuff like that.

    Suddenly a guy changes lane in front of you slightly too close for comfort.
    Within microseconds you move your steeringwheel to the side, your foot pushes down on the brake, and you push the horn to alert the guy who forgot he had a rear view mirror.

    All these actions were done instantly, without thinking about it.

    If your mind had tried to interfere, it would have first wanted to formulate the events that were happening "wow that car is way too close, I better move my steering wheel and brake. Maybe the horn as well to alert that guy".

    Of course, by the time you thought that, bumpers would have met allready.

    So, mind didn't do anything in those microseconds to see and recognise the danger. The danger was seen in consciousness, actions were taken by the body to solve the problem, and only then, after that shocking moment, did mind start up again " Wow it's a good thing I am so fast to react, I am an excellent driver".

    Now, who did the driving, mind, or the body ?

    Do you need to formulate the word "tree" in your mind for you to recognise the shape of a tree when you see it ?
    It is instantly seen and known. So why does mind still try to label that shape with the word "tree" ? Because you listen to it !

    The knowing of the shape of a tree of no-mind is different from the knowing of the mind.
    But which one is better ?
     
  12. harijan

    harijan Member

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    Edwin, thanks again.

    Yes, I see now, both consciousness and the interfering mind are happening at the same time.


    As in your example, we are driving on auto-pilot, but in times of danger the mind stops and consciousness takes over and the body reacts accordingly.


    Yes, I get your point, the tree "is", without any label from the mind.

    So everything just "is", without any labels.

    The mind labels things because we listen to it!!!

    So I should stop listening to the mind and go into stillness and see everything as it "is".


    I see it as one is not better than the other, consciousness is not better than mind; consciousness just "is", and the mind is my perception of what "is".

    Cheerz,
    Hari. :)
     
  13. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Quite welcome :)
    When looking closer at what you said, you will find out what tricks the mind tries to pull on you in order for you to believe that it is needed...

    Consciousness doesn't have to take over, as it always IS, even at those moments when you are immersed in thoughts, or at least when you think you are immersed in thoughts.
    Everything is happening in consciousness, the driving on autopilot, the thinking, the steering, the bird flying across the sky in the corner of your eye, the slight clunking sound from your car that you need to have looked after, the build up of tension of your blatter, EVERYTHING.
    When mind shuts down, all that is left is consciousness, as it was allready there.

    If you have anymore questions, fire away ;)
     
  14. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    .
    Yep, makes sense.

    I’m afraid I’m still confused with regard to consciousness, I can see that something sits behind thought and emotion, but I have no sense that this ‘backlight’ is contained in anything more than my body….I have tried meditating on “I am” quite a few times and (with a few brief exceptions) have always had the feeling/experience that it is all within my body, never a lasting feeling of oneness.

    At the risk of getting smacked legs for saying I need to connect to something that is already there… it feels like I haven’t quite made the ‘connection’ or had the realisation to push me to that level of feeling oneness.

    As soon as I see some of the things you write I get big doh! moments, as I see I've again fallen into the trap of thinking I have my own personal bit of consciousness…. But I think this is because I have yet to experience a significant feeling of oneness, as per my comment above.

    Yep – am with you… :)

    Now I’m not…… afraid I can’t see what you’re getting at. :(


    But if she chooses to do some chores to earn some pocket money to buy the doll, then surely she has exercised free will :confused:, because she had the options of:
    • Do nothing an not get the doll
    • Put some effort in and earn money to buy the doll

    No of course not……. well, actually…………..:rolleyes: :)


    It’s fair to say I feel like I’m chasing my tail somewhat, as you mention above we’re having to go back to basics and I am aware it’s not the first time. Possibly it’s just not my time for things to crystallize, if not so be it….. I’m not going to panic over it.

    I thank you for your contributions (and Giles/Midnight), but I’ll just keep reading threads from the forum and some of the recommended books and go for the water over stone effect, rather than hoping for the lightening bolt!

    :)

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  15. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    You can't connect to what you already are. The concept of "connecting" would imply going from where you are and finding something 'elsewhere', but the real You is not elsewhere, it's right here, you just can't observe it. If you're still experiencing that all is within your body then this would imply you are focusing on your body and looking for yourself to appear with it. You cannot observe your true Self. You can only be aware of the true Self through the knowledge that you are observing (I observer therefore I am). When you finally let go of focusing on the body, feelings, emotions etc. then you will become completely aware and feel within those limits.

    Consider when you are in deep sleep, or the mind falls unconscious (if you ever have, maybe through general aneasthetic for an operation?), the thoughts disappear, the sense of being connected with the body disappears, the emotions disappear, but do You disappear? If you did, you would not be there when the body, mind, feelings etc. reawaken, but you are still there, you never went anywhere, because you are already everywhere.

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  16. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Not that bad actually.

    Meditation on "I am" is like a road to the feeling of Being.
    It is a sensation that is mostly felt in the body, the knowing that you exist, you are, you are here and you exist.

    And as you said, this sensation is contained in the body.
    But wait, if it is contained in the body, this means that it is being observed.

    You are able to "see" that the feeling of beingness, of "I am" is in the body.

    So, if it is being watched, what is watching then ?
    Investigate that !
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with investigating it as long as you haven't seen it. Keep going !
    Otherwise you become one of those fakes that keeps repeathing things he has heard while he doesn't really understand what he is saying.
    Isn't it strange how even tho you don't understand yet, you recognise some sort of truth in the words ?

    Does consiousness visualise what you are going to do, or does the visualisation of what you are going to do appear in consciousness ?

    And if it appears in consciousness, what generated that visualisation ?
    Does it have a stamp on it saying "Made by Consciousness" or does it say "made by Mind to serve Consciousness" ?
    You are missing the point:

    When does she appear more free:

    When she wants something
    or
    When she doesn't want something.

    Actually, it is more about "free focus" than "free will".

    Focus, awareness is the only thing that can be directed.
    Like in meditation, focusing on the thought to generate the next one, or focusing on the mantra to steer focus away from the next one.
    All other functions are generated by mind/emotions.

    If my daughter focuses on that doll, Mind makes up the decision "I want that doll".
    She hears the words, believes that she is the "I" in that sentence, and focuses on that thought "I want that doll".
    Happy to oblige, the mind immediately facilitates another thought, hoping that it will be of use:
    "I will ask my father if I can have one"
    Again, my daugher believes that she is the "I" in that thought, and a complicated process in the brain is started to her body say the words: Daddy, I want that doll.

    To remind you, she was perfectly happy walking in the mall with me until that thought came up when she saw the doll.
    But now she is convinced that she can only become happy again if she has that doll. She is also convinced that she is unhappy without it.
    If she were, as you said, to save money and buy it, she would be happy... for some time. And then she would lose interest in the doll, and start persueing the next thought. So how much happyness did "getting the doll" really give ?
    Only some joy when she got it.
    Mooji once said that the joy of getting what you want is just from relief of being relieved from that cramped up "wanting" ;) think about that !

    So the projection of an "I" wanting a doll in order to "become happy" narrowed her view of the world, instead of enhancing it.

    But doesn't an enlightened one want something then ?
    Of course there still are needs that come up, just like with everybody else.
    But, there is no "I" that wants something.

    If I were to see a really nice car, you know, the one with a big engine, slightly sportive, a lot of rubber on the wheels ;) a thought might come up "It would be nice if I had one of those"
    but observing the thought, I know that the "I" thought isn't who I really am !
    So it is impossible to take that thought serious !

    If however the thought is given attention, I might take another job to earn more money, save up to get the car, and have it, and still not take it personally.
    Saving up for the car, buying it, driving it and the fun from having the car will cause some feelings of joy, but I also know that these feelings are fleeting, so I simply enjoy them while they last, accepting all emotions that come with it, but if I were to fail in getting that car, there would be no remorse, no feeling of "I have to have that to become happy" because I allready am happy.
    It seems strange, but it is also a bit like a statement I read of a woman who said that she loved her husband so much that even when they were fighting, she felt happy with her life, because she knew that the fight didn't deminish or hurt her love for him.

    In the "Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy", a very funny book, in the beginning of the book it is said that there are only 2 intelligent life-forms on earth, Humans and Dolphins.
    Humans think they are superior because they have built city's and clothes and cars, and dolphins think they are superior because of the same reason ;)

    I am starting to believe that the dolphins are right :p.
    Always happy to help, and like I said, there is no shame in seriously searching.
    If I were to get the feeling that you aren't taking this serious I would stop wasting time.

    Don't feel discouraged if you can't "feel what is allready there".
    In fact, I would almost say: "Don't quit on me now !"
    Or are Giles, Midnight and little old me getting too close for comfort ?
    Is ego starting to flinch, realising it is losing the battle ? ;)

    BTW, I read this really good analogy about what Giles said about consciousness and unconsciousness.

    Think of it as a candle.

    When a candle is burning, the flame is like "waking consciousness" and when the candle is not burning, it is like "deep sleep" or maybe "death".

    If the flame is waking consciousness, how can it be aware of when it is not burning ? It can't as it is only a flame and can never be not a flame. To the flame, no flame doesn't exist. It is only burning, never not burning, and as such could never remember not burning.

    However, you are aware of the fact that in the daytime, you are waking consciousness, and when having been in dreamless sleep and waking up, you know that you were away, and now you are there again.
    As such, you could never "be" waking consciousness, but only the observer of waking consciousness.

    In the deepest form of meditation, called "samadhi" waking consciousness goes, but awareness stays. This is the only way to experience dreamless sleep but still know about it.
    Ramana Maharshi was sometimes in deep meditation for 3 weeks without interruptions, but since there was no mind, no waking consciousness, he never knew how long he "was away".
    The place he was staying in was timeless, boundryless universal consciousness, infinite bliss, in short, our real Self, and he could only tell time by coming out of it and if he still had power to get up and walk, he could only have been away for a few hours, and if people had to carry him, he must have been out longer like some weeks or so :eek:.
    People had to force-feed him during those longer periods.

    So, this will be enough for you to process for another few days ;)

    Love, Edwin
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2010
  17. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    LOL, yes!

    In the last 100 years or so a lot of humans have believed that that are beings of superior intelligence from other worlds waiting to invade planet earth……….Come on……..if these beings had superior intelligence why on “earth” would they come to our crazy planet. :)
     
  18. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hello again, unfortunately it’s been a while :( but I’d like to carry on this discussion :).

    I can see what you’re getting at, but as I mentioned I feel like consciousness is sitting behind my thoughts (as I can watch them) as per my emotions but I feel totally rooted in myself or ‘my own being’. It’s like I’ve gone a step back (to observe my thoughts/feelings) but I can’t go back further, but I’ll persevere and reflect more on these comments to see if I get an “ah ha!” moment.

    Yep, that’s probably one of my biggest concerns. I don’t want to be someone who just echo’s hollow scripture/words without being able to feel the essence of it, the following expands on this point.

    .
    Absolutely, I’ve never been a religious person but through ET (not the BMX flying vreemd ;)), Mooji and others, plus this forum, I’ve come to a way of thinking that I am comfortable with and one in which I feel there is genuine truth (although I have yet to fully experience it). When I read/listen to a lot of this type of thing, to me it just seems right.

    I hope the following is taken in the right way as I certainly don’t mean to offend. This is a simplistic review of my old thoughts but it’s a summary of what caused the confusion regarding religion & belief within me. Basically I’ve seen religious people look down on me in the past whilst they are hardly beacons of morality themselves, the amount of money some religions consume and in addition you hear about abuse within and between religions and even religious war. I will add that this was compounded by my view that religion wasn’t “the in thing”, something that unfortunately gave me a bit of arrogance towards it.

    Because of all this is I was very doubtful about the subject and I thought all religious people just followed scripture to ‘technically do the right thing’ on the surface so they get enough ‘points’ to get into heaven, whilst underneath not necessarily being too nice. Plus I had seen that many good people did not follow a specific religion/practice.

    Over time I’ve certainly realised that irrespective of religious background, people who have a genuine insight/connection to life have a quiet confidence and will share these views without pushing them. These are the people I want to engage with and learn from. Even if I don’t agree with the thoughts they are only offering an opinion for you to consider not ‘telling you how it should be done’ according to there views or beliefs. These people will not get defensive if you challenge there thinking/experience because they know it to be true, so there is nothing to defend, that for me exemplifies pure belief.

    I’m with you now (I can hear the thank *&^% echoing over from the Netherlands! :D), the subtle change to ‘free focus’ is what did it.


    Definitely, did you see the film? It was very good (IMHO)

    Unfortunately I’m not sure if it is or not, I’m not one to normally back away from things – but maybe that comment is just my mental perception of myself…… Although in a funny way there may be a small part of me that wants to argue this….:eek:

    But surely you need to be conscious of something to be aware of it? If you were to get knocked out you’d be ‘unconscious’, if so how can you be ‘aware’ of anything if all things exist within consciousness? :confused:


    Also, just a final thing I thought was a bit strange but you have ‘seen the light’ and had the ‘ahhhhh got it’ moment but yet your still seeing a guru…. Now this sounds like there is a point of realisation, then you need to ‘hone you skills’ – but doesn’t the whole point of realisation mean you should drop the need to ‘learn more’?

    As ever – thanks.

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  19. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    YAY ! :)
    Just noticing that you are the one observing both thoughts and emotions, acknowledging that you are not what you think or feel, is quite a big step allready.

    Of course you feel rooted in your own being, in yourself. You Are yourself.
    But that Yourself that you are is not your body, mind or emotions.

    A lot of crimes were commited in the name of religion, this is true. But most religions are based on enlightened beings. It's the followers who didn't see what he meant but still thought they did that made a mess of it.

    Hehehe I am just glad you didn't give up.
    The opinion, the reflection and the arguement arising in you are all mind-made. They can never really cover who you really are. Nobody knows how they will react to a situation. People constantly surprise themselves. "I don't know why I did that" is a phrase oftan heard.
    So, instead of allowing the mind chatter to go on in your head, stop your focus on them. All of it is less than what you really are.
    "I'm not the one to normally back away from things" is a judgement made on an imaginary person, who you think you are, based on actions in the past.
    Those actions were observed by you, so the lead player in this play you call your life can't be the one observing it, can't be You...
    You are the one focusing on the object Paul.
    Thoughts arise, feelings submerge, actions are done. All of them are observed by You.
    try to imagine what it would be like to be conscious, aware, but not of your body, not of time, no pain, no emotions except for blissfull love.

    That is samadhi.

    I have heard that once you are a fully enlightened being you stay aware even during dreamless sleep. Have heard ? Yes, and that brings me to your next question:
    Excellent question.

    Excellent indeed ! At a certain time the moment of realisation comes, where you feel that you are not your body, mind, emotions.

    Most people call this enlightenment allready, but I like to call it "Realization" instead. You see, even tho you have seen that the ego is false, it has dominated your life for quite some time, and you have been "programmed" to act in a certain way for years.
    Exactly !!!! It means that you have to Unlearn more.
    For some this takes a few years, for others it takes 10 years.
    Since my realization is exactly a year ago today ( party yay ) I am sure that egoic mind hasn't stopped entirely.

    The true enlightenment is when all of ego and all of it's tricks completely oblitherates. This moment has not come for me yet.
    That doesn't mean that I can't help you reach my level tho, not as a guru, but as a friend helping out a friend.

    I have two links for you.
    Ed Muzika, a student of Robert Adams who was a student of Ramana Maharshi himself, has recently started teaching. It took him 34 years to come to this point, just so you know.

    Only a few years ago he helped a guy from India to become a fully enlightened being like himself, and this guy, Rajiv Kapur, has collected all letters sent both ways and made it into a documentary called:
    http://www.wearesentience.org/resources/Autobiography of a Jnani.pdf

    A read well worth it. Now I am not saying that for any of us the experiences can be the same, but the letters resonate with me very much.

    When you are done with this manuscript, I would like you to try the meditation that Ed Muzika tried before he became fully enlightened.

    A final note,
    This can not be forced !
    Through the talks that we have on this forum, Realization can occur, and after that, all that can be done if there can be done anything at all, is to do the meditation excercise of Ed Muzika, which essentially is to "abide in the Self" as Ramana Maharshi called it, and in time, something will happen, or so I have been told.

    Midnight and myself keep in touch through email and we both feel that this meditation method is quite good, right Midnight ?

    It can help you feel that space-like awareness, that you are bigger than your body, that you are infinate. It helps you notice that you really do observe body/mind, that this is not who you are.

    The meditation method:
    http://www.wearesentience.org/resources/Edji - Guided Meditation.mp3
     
  20. Midnight

    Midnight Member

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    The way I've perceived the experience is that the moment of enlightenment - of realization - is when you see that what you are looking for is already there. The peace, the joy, inner whatever...it's all inside you. That's what stops the search for the next technique, for the NEED to learn more. You know that regardless, you are you, and you'll always be you, and nothing you can do can ever make you more you than you already are!

    Because that makes total sense, right... :p

    By knowing all this, it also implies that you know that you aren't your mind, or body, or emotions.

    All your conditioning was created by suppressed emotions. Meditation will reveal these things within you, but it won't make them go away for you. It is you who has to experience them, and let them go through you. This is the unlearning. So while you are capable of knowing who you really are regardless of the circumstance, feelings of complete bliss and peace shine through when there are no emotions covering it up. It's always at the base.

    That guided meditation that Edwin posted is pretty great! I've had a few realizations in the little time I've begun practicing that method. Until recently, that the idea of me in my head was one that I was still afraid to let go. But I realized that "I" is only a concept in my head. I can live and do things completely okay without it. I STILL EXIST WITHOUT THIS IDEA. Nothing has changed, nothing ever did. Even before this realization. I think the mind is just scared to let it go, because it offers an illusion of security.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2010

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