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Anticipation

Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Mr Monkey, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    I stand corrected :)
     
  2. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Hope this isn’t turning into too much of an epic for you? If its not, I had a couple of beers last might, mulled over your comments and the next instalment follows, and if my previous was a monster, this is its brother, on steroids! :eek:

    In seriousness, I feel a bit bad posting this much as you like anyone else will have other things to do; unfortunately I feel it needs to be this length for me to give you a decent idea of where I am coming from.

    Ha ha, your not doing a bad job at times ;) , but your patience if definitely appreciated!

    Thanks for the encouragement, again appreciated, its good to know I’m heading in the right direction. I do find this subject interesting, but also a bit confusing and far from the type of learning I have undertaken previously in my life.

    As I say things have got a lot better from quite a few years ago, and in moments of reflection I am grateful for my past issues as it has led me down a path that I feel is beneficial. Saying that, if someone were to tap me on the shoulder during an attack of nerves and say “you’re a lucky one aren’t you!”, the response may be different! :mad: I only say that last bit in jest :D :). I know what you saying and looking at the bigger picture, I feel (but don’t know for sure) that it could lead to a really positive future path being taken. Plus it was my anxiety issues that made me realise that I need to look inwards, not outwards for solutions.

    Absolutely, on a mental level I can see it does, but I’m not conscious of it all the time…..

    Press the button, flick the switch! This to me is the issue. To some extent I can mentally see what the idea/concept is, but I am not absorbed in or realised to the reality of it – I’m not living it, I just need that switch flicked from ‘mentally understand’ to ‘living it’.

    Hmmm, I suspect this a conversation you’ve had a few times before :rolleyes:

    I see……. :) and I don’t see……..:confused:

    I can see you’re saying that something (a true self) is sitting behind the mental construct ‘Edwin’, just as I am a mental construct ‘Paul’ with something behind it. Plus, everyone else’s perception of themselves is a mental construct. In fact ‘Edwin’ is also just a mental construct to me, as I have mentally labelled you (in nice ways of course :D) and have expectations of your behaviour etc. So in essence, we are through names (or maybe even nationality, religion, gender etc), perceived as mental objects by ourselves as well as by others.

    I appreciate these mental constructs are coloured/blemished by the experiences, situations and association that people have had through life. The mental construct of self can also adapt itself to be conducive to particular situations, by putting different masks on (as Giles mentioned). Thus, wrapping another layer around the original mental construct, based on situational expectations and previous experiences.

    I can’t see how you can say you’re watching ‘Edwin’ do his thing freely without having relinquished control of ‘Edwin’. If ‘Edwin’ decided to drive at 10% over the speed limit to get somewhere a little bit more quickly, then got stopped by a politieagent ;), would it be ‘Edwin’ the ‘free agent’ to blame or your ‘true self’ for not intervening?

    I have a strong suspicion that I’m getting myself confused as you are talking about your ‘self’ and ‘Edwin’ as two separate ‘things’ (per say). So I still feel I’m not getting the bigger picture here……, for me you must still have at least some control over ‘Edwin’….. or maybe it’s the thought of not having control that is the issue with me…. hmmm………………..:confused:

    This is something that has been nagging me a bit from your first post. I hope this doesn’t come across as rude, but the question keeps pinging around my head – if that’s true, why are we taking about it?

    Ha ha, you can indeed feel the truth (have that sunshine!!) but that type of emotion/reaction is for bods like me, if you’re enlightened surely you’d be happy to just to say “No, its red”. If they were adamant it was blue then rather than angrily debate it, you’d just say “fair enough, if that’s what you think that’s all good”, no worries either way.

    But if so………………

    What if two enlightened people had to sort out a serious problem? This is admittedly a somewhat far fetched example, but bear with me.

    Say Eckhart and Mooji had just been on a bomb disposal course, I did say this was a touch far fetched! ;) Then they found themselves in a room (from which they couldn’t escape) with a bomb counting down, Eckhart was convinced that the red wire needed to be cut, anything else would be certain doom. Mooji was sure the blue one needed axing, but anything else would bring the house down :eek:.

    So you have two enlightened people, diametrically opposed to each others approaches, both with exactly the same knowledge level, with certain doom impending! Would one of them say “fair enough, if that’s what you think do it”, would they both say that and end up cutting neither wire? Would they get into a heated debate and one of them force the issue? (Eckhart V’s Mooji Slam Down?! :p). I know it’s a silly scenario, but how do you see it playing out and why do you think that?

    Now, to move onto the other thread you mentioned when Midnight had the penny drop. It did make for an interesting read, a few extracts below:

    This resonates with what you mentioned before about feeling bad about emotions, nice way of framing it – it clearly shows how crazy thinking like that actually is!

    Now this for me is a bit of a sticking point for me, consciousness must be in the brain, surely? :confused:

    Anything you perceive, feel or are aware of is as a result of the brain functioning, loads of different chemicals bubbling away in the cauldron that is the head. I can understand that there are two aspects to brain (for the sake of this discussion anyway), the mind and consciousness, with the mind sitting within consciousness.

    If you aware able to perceive/notice consciousness, then it suggests your brain is doing some processing to enable you to do so, so from that point of view consciousness must be within the brain. If someone stops your brain, they stop you ability to perceive consciousness just as much as they stop your ability to do anything else.

    Right, I think thats that for the time being :), if I could buy you a beer for reading all that (and your time/effort) I would, but for now this’ll have to do:

    [​IMG]

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  3. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    There you go again. Stop that. I am having heaps of fun with this little discussion.;)
    If I figure out how to reach you, it will be the last one.
    This is where grace comes along again. You will have to wait for that to happen. But for now, it doesn't hurt to focus on the moments where you do feel conscious of it. Whatever you focus on will grow by your attention, focus on the moments where you are aware.

    and have struggled with in the past myself ;)
    What struck me as really mind-boggling was that when I finally let go of my mental construct of "Edwin", the body just kept on moving, reacting, talking, thinking, feeling, living life. Edwin still existed, but mind stopped claiming that it was "Me" doing all that.

    A Dutch Advaita teacher called Jan van Delden uses the example of the pilotfish. As you might know, they attach themselves to sharks or whales, feeding on the scraps that are left by the shark.
    The ego is kind of like a pilotfish. It keeps saying "Go left here, go right there, see, I told you you should have gone that way".
    But the shark moves about undisturbed by the pilotfish that claim they are doing all the work.
    The mental construct of self doesn't put different masks on, it IS a mask. In fact, maybe it isn't even a mental construct. It is a collection of random thoughts that come up, that are believed to come from consciousness, while their source is the mind.
    For instance, if your colleage tells you you have done an excellent job, your mind will tell you that you did very well, and you will feel good about what kind of employee you are.
    But 30 minutes later your boss might come to you telling that he found a huge mistake in some of your previous work costing the company a lot of money.
    Now you will feel like a bad employee because of your mind telling you this.

    How can you change from a good employee to a bad employee in just 30 minutes ?

    You can't !
    You are just working, and one minute some good work is discovered, and a few minutes later some bad work is discovered.
    This is just what happened, and you decided to believe that you are first a good, and then a bad employee.
    Ah, free will. Very good, the next chapter has arrived.

    BTW politieagent haha nicely done :p
    What can True Self really do ? All that consciousness does, is be conscious.
    It watches everything that happens, wether it happens outside or inside your body. Consiousness knows no difference from watching your own body and that of someone else. Because everything appears in consciousness, and consciousness is the witness.
    Since there is such a strong belief in the "I" thought, that I am doing all kinds of stuff, we are goofed into thinking that free will exists.

    Remember me telling you this ? :
    Thoughts and emotions come up by themselves, they are not the product of "you".

    Knowing that you are consciousness, what thought have you ever produced in your life ? Do you acknowledge the fact that the thought comes up by itself ? Are you still "clouding" ?
    very good ! Who is in control ? I am ? Who am I ?

    Does consciousness feel the need to be in control ? Or does consciousness just observe the desire to be in control ?
    You tell me ! ;) Who is asking questions about it ? I am not, I allready know ! Don't let that stop you tho, you are welcome to keep on asking ;)
    First of all, I have no idea how they would react. There is even the possiblity that anger will arise in both of them, and one of them would decide to act upon that. My bet is on Mooji, he is a lot stronger physically ;)

    If you would ask them, they might answer the same, because they too have to wait and see how they would react. All this action/reaction comes from the mind, and they have no clue what their next thought or emotion will be, just as it is with all of us.

    But secondly, don't fall into the trap of thinking that an enlightened one can't feel anger or sadness or fear anymore. Emotions and thoughts that you would at this time still label as "unwanted thoughts" will always keep arising.
    But, because an enlightened one isn't acting on the false assumption that he is thinking or feeling that anymore, it isn't taken personal anymore, and acts upon that thought and feeling only when it seems appropriate, and forget about all other emotions and thoughts without giving them another moment of their attention.
    So, maybe the idea of being in control, of having free will comes from attention. If you pay a thought that you think is unwanted attention by thinking "Why am I thinking that, I am not an @#$%^^ like that, I shouldn't think that way" the next thought and the next and the next will follow.
    So attention generates thoughts and emotions.
    If you pay a certain thought or emotion no attention the thought train will stop right there.
    So if you know that thoughts just come up with the intention to be of use, but really aren't of use, but either way aren't your work anyway, why bother getting worked up over them ?

    A good example is of a friend of Jan van Delden, he used to have a illogical fear of dogs. Since he likes to go running in the morning in the citypark, this used to mess up his workout because there are bound to be people walking their dogs in the park.

    After having his moment of insight, this friend of Jan still liked running in the park, and every time he met a dog he could sense the fear of dogs rising, but since this fear was impersonal now, it had nothing to do with who he really was, he chose not to react to the fear, to not give it anymore attention, and just keep on running.
    Fear gone !

    All this sounds very logical.
    But all this is knowledge that you have read of have been told.

    Why don't you explore if you can find consciousness within you.
    There is no denying that you are conscious, so it is there.
    But where is it ? Do you feel it in your head, or in your feet, or in your stomach, or everywhere in your body ?

    Or does consciousness have no physical trademarks at all ?
    If it has no physical trademarks, if is is no-thing, how can it originate in the brain ?
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2010
  4. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Oh thanks for the beer, have one on me as well ;)
     
  5. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Phew, a long one Paul, but I'll just pick out a couple of things if I may...

    The True Self cannot intervene, it can only be aware. It doesn't control, it just observes. Practicing being in the present moment and quietening the mind through meditation and other practices, allows us to stay more present and as such the 'need' to exceed the speed limit would disappear because that 'need' is created by the ego; an attachment to desire or fear of 'being late' or whatever.

    And let's face it, you've probably noticed those times driving down the road when some idiot has driven dangerously, speeding past and overtaking in stupid places as if they're in a desperate rush to get somewhere, zooming off ahead of you for you to then catch up with them again at the traffic lights. They've created themselves a lot of stress and anxienty, risking their own life through their road rage and anger, to get nowhere any faster. :D

    If Edwin's True Self is watching Edwin then that's exactly what he is doing in being aware. It wouldn't matter if a surgeon cut off his arms and legs, put him in a ladies dress and changed his name to Lilly, that wouldn't change the observer who is still there observing what is going on. The "Edwin" is just a label, and the "Body" is just something else to be observed.

    That last sentance says it all. It's the fear in the mind, created by ego, that prevents you from letting go. The ego believes that if you let go the mind will disappear and never return; that it will be the end of 'you' forever more, yet we do know that we experience moments in life, and certainly a lot more during meditation and other practices, where we momentarily achieve states of complete awareness (enlightenment) such that there are no ego, thoughts, feelings etc., but we are still able to return to the 'real world' ;)

    The two enlightened people living in the present moment would either know or not know how to diffuse the bomb. It wouldn't be a case of what they "think". If one knew how to do it then he would do it. If neither knew how to diffuse bombs they would simply say so and agree that their two options are to either let the bomb go off, or cut a wire and see if that worked such that the only truth would be to cut any wire and put their lives in the realms of chance (a 1 in 2 or 50:50 chance if there are two wires).

    The truth is right in front of them and, being present, they would not let the mind get in the way by creating "thoughts" about what in their "opinion" was best.

    There's no proof either way, it's a matter of belief. The wise teachings of the past tell us that the 'consciousness' is seperate from physical things, so killing the brain does not kill the consciousness. You can choose to either consider the brain as the 'all controlling' centre of your being, or you can choose to look at the brain as the interface between consciousness and the physical body we are attached to. To date, science has neither proven or disproven that the consciousness exists in the brain or outside the brain. You choose, it's your truth.

    ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  6. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    ROFLMAO !!!!:D:D:D:D

    Excellent post Giles !
     
  7. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Point taken ;), I must say I’ve just spent an enjoyable time putting this together; you guys have certainly got me thinking!

    You’re more than welcome to (and your time is appreciated), but I haven’t let you guys off with a small post this time either…... Although on the same note you guys only have yourselves to blame for replying with such thought provoking answers!:rolleyes: Maybe I’ll just be getting one word answers from now on :D

    It feels a bit like I’m in a box (a little mind made one), and I am banging the insides trying to get out as I feel like there is an infinite amount of space outside the box. In a way, like I’m trapped in sort of Tardis type box as it flies through space without being able to get out.

    It seems like you either have to stress the box so much it breaks (as Eckhart Tolle’s experience) or the door becomes obvious at some point and you can just walk through (Midnight’s experience). I don’t have any say in the matter which is a bit annoying.

    Perhaps there is a lesson in this that I’m not seeing. I think that I maybe looking for a specific recipe, or ‘special combo’ (in gaming terms) to ‘break through’ but it’s just not like that. Maybe I’m far more trapped in my mind than I like to acknowledge to myself, and I am hooked on looking for logical ways to resolve this situation.

    It’s reassuring to know that others who have ‘got there’ had to but in a bit of effort too :rolleyes: :)

    Ha ha, yep same here :D. He’s quite a big unit so could probably open a can of whoop-ass on someone, should he feel that way inclined (but that’s for later on…).

    This is what I have difficulty with; you are suggesting ‘you’ are not the active person in life but someone watching the active participant ‘Edwin’.

    This amused me too :D, albeit a slightly harsh analogy! I get the idea though but, as ever, have a couple of questions on it.

    I appreciate that irrespective of Edwin’s (or is that Lilly’s ;)) form that the observer will be untouched and that the mental construct of ‘Edwin’ can’t have any impact on the observer. But…. what if Edwin saw the dress coming and said “Awwwww, but pastel blue isn’t my type of colour, do you have something more floral?”

    My point being, the above analogy is told as if Edwin is non-resistant to being de-limbed, put in a dress and having his name changed, and all this is just being watched by the observer. I don’t know Edwin personally so am not placed to be able to categorically state this, but I would suspect that he likes having limbs, is happy enough with the name Edwin and isn’t into wearing dresses (that often :eek: :p).

    So surely there would be resistance there? Wouldn’t Edwin want to prevent all this happening? What if before being de-limbed he had the opportunity to kill the maniac surgeon and retain his limbs? Would that be an ethical thing to do from an ‘enlightened’ perspective?

    This has led me on to another question………….

    How does enlightenment and morality fit together? I used to think that it was hand in glove, but I don’t think it’s that clear cut now.

    I’ve seen comments where by enlightened people make money out of passing on there knowledge/wisdom, is this right?
    If they are why aren’t they donating the money to charity and living on bread and water (or a very basic existence)?
    Why don’t enlightened people all migrate to do charitable ventures?
    Why aren’t all enlightened people vegans? (ie not killing other beings to consume)

    Then this came to mind……

    As I understand it animals live in pure consciousness, they have not ego (or do they? as they have a pecking order and fights….) yet they still eat/kill each other.

    My previous thoughts on the matter were that if you were enlightened you would lose your will for aggression and violence. I can’t imagine any of the ‘enlightened’ people I’ve read or watched being aggressive.

    So by that (pretty poor) general rule, you could conclude that no enlightened person would want to fight. Yet we have an Orange Ninja not a million miles away (I know it’s really Jujitsu :p), so how does that square?

    Could it ever be conceivable for an enlightened person to kill? Take a standard moral dilemma, if someone said “Eckhart, to save 1,000,000 people you have to kill one person.” Would he do it or would it be too much? Is it a personal choice or a general enlightened viewpoint that would guide his decision?

    This is something that I fall into a fair bit, I used to think I had a tiny ego, but over the last year or so I have come to realise that I have a massive ego, the ‘little me’ has huge control/influence at times.

    I used to equate ego to either the rich or powerful, which of course is complete rubbish. I’ve come to appreciate that ego cuts across all boundaries and its presence can be large or small, irrespective of the person’s situation or background.

    I can catch myself at times enjoying the warm glow of a complement; mind says “Pat on the head for Paul”, which feels nice. But then, as you say, if something turns out wrong it’s kick butt time, the mind says “YOU ARE RUBBISH!!!, why didn’t you see that? they did!, you can’t do anything right!”. The mind can be quite creative either way and quite often it’s sometime after the event that I realise that I have gone to an extreme either way, which is when I can put some perspective to it.

    On the note of judging people, I was flicking through the TV channels not so long ago and came across ‘Judge Judy’ (a Judge that deals with small issues in a TV court). Watching Judge Judy I started thinking how blunt she was and how in some circumstances she’d prejudge people. I started thinking how bad she was for judging people like that, - then I twigged that I was judging Judge Judy, for the way she judged others…… - then I started judging myself for judging her!!:eek: I couldn’t help a little simile when I realised that whole sequence. The mind can be a stealthy beast! :D

    Totally, it’s just at the moment I’m not too good at being able to step outside the mind/ego and avoid being involved in its games. When I sit and think about this stuff I can see things from more of on ‘outside’ perspective, but when your in the mix of day to day life its not that easy to prevent yourself being hooked and drawn in deeply to an egoic viewpoint.

    I see what you’re saying, but what if they both fully believed they knew the solution, but the solutions they had differed and only one solution could be tried out?

    It sounds nice, very nice in fact, but I’m not yet at that point where I can see that disconnect – this just goes back to my comments regarding the character ‘Edwin’.

    This got me thinking, in that I naturally want to fight things. This has been beneficial with my anxiety problems in that I carry on when times are tough, but is also counterproductive in that I pressure myself sometimes and can see things as winning/losing rather than “30% went fine, 70% to work on” type of thing.

    Also I can’t deny that there is a little undercurrent of emotion in these posts for me, yet if I stand back I can look at the emotions and see a child having a tantrum:
    • Anger – “Why can’t I understand?”
    • Jealousy – “Why do they get it not me?”
    • Frustration – “Why is this such hard work?”
    • Pride – “If I get this too easily, I won’t deserve it”

    Maybe this something totally irrelevant :confused:, but I thought I’d throw some light on it; just in case.

    Interestingly for me this comment didn’t sit well with me, I guess I didn’t like the feeling that I have to have faith in my own truth. I realise what I ideally wanted was someone to say, this is enlightenment (gives a concrete definition) and here is your 10 step plan for getting there. That way I would know what I was achieving and how to gauge my progress. This stuff is outside that structure, which is hard for me to comprehend to a large degree. I guess I have to have some degree of ‘belief’, which feels a bit strange (perhaps that’s the scary part for me :confused:).

    Well, all I can say is congratulations, you’ve made it :p :)

    I guess I’m living up to my avatar at the moment with all these questions coming from my monkey mind! ;) :)

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2010
  8. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    *stretches fingers*.... ok... here we go...

    Yup, you're looking for something 'external' the be the thing that does it for you, but in truth it you (the True Self) who is already everywhere and is just observing the ego mind playing tricks, putting itself in the dualistic universe where it appears to be seperate from everything else. Your True Self, doesn't have this limitation, but the ego mind will do everything in it's power to keep active and refuse to acknowledge the True Self observing the truth.

    In truth, the observer has no cares about this. The ego mind will have created 'ideas' and attachments to things from the past that creates some concept that this body called Edwin doesn't like Blue and prefers something floral. These are just things that are created from growing up in society and engrained into the mind by our parents/teachers. We could just as easily have grown up in a world where the male of the species wears brightly coloured clothes, lipstick and spends a fortune on haircuts and the women fart, drink beer and like football. In fact in many creatures it is the males who are brightly coloured and the females look drab. There's no right, no wrong, as far as the observer is concerned, just "issues" that the mind creates for itself.

    Society creates needs for the body. Quite simply all we need is sufficient food to keep the body alive and a roof over our heads to keep warm. If bread and water sufficed then fair enough, but not all places in the world would suit such rations as some places may only be suitable for eating other animals, or fruits etc. It all depends on the environment. In order to meet the basic needs to keep the body living, society has created a need to earn money to pay for things, so it's not wrong to earn money to live on and to pay the bills for that roof over our heads. Where it becomes problematic is when we become attached to that, such that we want more money than we need or we get greedy or we constantly want more posessions saying we "need" them (e.g. "I need the latest phone" etc.) and then that attachment leads to problems if we lose any of those things. It takes us into the world of dualism where something isn't just for a proper need, but is used to create a "me and mine", "them and theirs" attitude. So, it's fine for someone to make money from sharing their knowledge, if they are not limiting who they share it with. e.g. someone may charge people to attend a course where they share their knowledge, and that money goes towards paying for the bills and the food on the course, but if someone were to come along that simply could not afford the course, an enlightened person would be happy to allow that person to attend anyway, perhaps asking that the person 'pays' in some other way either through giving service or maybe in the future by passing on their knowledge freely to others. etc. Sharing of knowledge to allow a person to help themselves is one of the greatest Charities there are. ;)
    As for enlightened people being vegans, this is really just a conceptual view of the mind again. Who is to say that veganism is right or wrong? Why not go a step further and have fruitarians as better than vegans because they don't kill the plants? Does that mean vegans can't be enlightened? But you could also argue that fruitarians prevent new potential plants from growing as they have destroyed the fruit that allows the plant to grow new generations of itself. These worldly concepts are nothing really to do with being englightened or living in truth. They are modern day add-ons to a belief of what is spiritual or not. As an example, there are plenty of buddhists living in Tibet and other Eastern countries who eat meat as it's the main source of food for them, most of the vegetarian/vegan buddhists actually live in Western countries.

    Everything has ego. An animal has a concept of itself being seperate and animals do fight and have attachment to their property. They fight over territory, food, mates etc. This is the ego at play.

    It's not so much a case of will, because will is of the mind. An enlightened person would be fully aware of aggressive or violent thoughts (or other emotions) arising in the mind and let those thoughts pass without acting on them. This is a little like Michael talks about in the EnlightenQ CD1 when he discusses the 'plumbing'. We are full of self chatter, aka the discursive mind. Recognising this and recognising that our True Self is seperate from the mind allows us to not act on those discursive thoughts.

    A true martial artist does not fight through agression or violence. They are using their skills for self defence, and the proof comes from the fact that a true martial artist uses very little effort in their skills, but can turn the agression and force of their attacker against them. They do not fight for their own gain, but simply to protect themselves.

    The sacrifice of the few for the benefit of many is not a concept of Vedic teachings and thus not something that someone truly enlightened would entertain. An enlightened person would simply act in the present moment. He would not kill anyone, and it would not be his responsibility that 1,000,000 people died as a result, as that could only happen as the result of someone else.

    It is good that you see that. We all have ego. We wouldn't physically exist without it.

    Absolutely. This happens daily as we are distracted by things going on around us. Practice at being present (helped by meditation practice) allows us to recognise this happening more and more and allows us to stop ourselves in our tracks and bring ourselves back to the present and act rather than re-act.

    They wouldn't "believe" they knew the solution. They would either know it or not know it. If they "knew" the solution they would be able to explain how they knew it to be so thus disproving any "belief" in the other. The truth would then be seen, and there is only one truth. ;)


    It's not You wanting to fight, it's the Mind wanting it, because it doesn't like change. It wants to stay with everything it knows from the past and dislikes being changed by true knowledge overriding what it believes is already true.

    But you do, it's just the mind playing. ;)

    You're getting there, and so are we. By no means do we completely "get it". It takes practice, and time. I could say I've been discovering about this stuff since I started doing Tai Chi back in 2003, but in truth (certainly in this lifetime), I've been discovering about this stuff from the moment I started believing myself to be seperate from others (they say that's usually around the age of 2 i.e. the terrible 2's!)

    Possibly because you believe it to be. The truth isn't hard at all. Getting rid of the untruths takes effort. ;)

    You've already got it, you've just got to become aware of it. It's not a case of whether we deserve it or not, it's part of what we are naturally and truthfully. It can't be taken away from us, it's just that it gets covered up by the mind. ;)


    Indeed, interesting, and I guess that's why I put that comment there, as it made you consider it.

    Well if you're not going to believe in your own truth, who's truth are you going to believe in? Someone elses? That would be just your own perception of their ideas. How wrong would that be.

    Michael's part way there with his EnlightenQ program, but nobody can fully give you a 10 step plan and clear definition.

    Phew! :D

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  9. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    I am just covering your first remarks because Giles answered the rest beautifully.
    And for some strange reason the things that Giles covered didn't appeal to me as much as your first remarks.

    I guess consciousness is playing it's strategy through an orange SAMURAI ( Jiu Jitsu comes from the Samurai fighting technique, where the Ninja's were the opposing party of guerilla fighting farmers who stood up against the established order ) and a Tai Chi warrior from the other side of the channel, just as our fighting techniques seem to be, being Chinese and Japanese ;)

    Right now the walls of the box seem solid. If I were to correct your analogy, this would be the truth:
    You are not in a box in consciousness. Consciousness is what the box has been imagined in. As soon as you imagined the box, you imagined yourself to be inside it.
    And now you seem to be looking from within the box to the outside.
    But, the truth of the matter is that you are consciousness itself. As the box has been imagined withing consciousness, you are both inside and outside the box. In fact, you are also the box itself. As you are everything, you are also nothing. Wether inside the box, outside the box, or the box itself, all is consciousness.
    As soon as you see this clearly, look at your next remark:
    Nothing as dramatic as that is needed. It can come with a bang, or quite silently. But whatever the sensation that accompany's the realisation, it's not the side effects that matter. In the end the only thing that matters is that you see that the box doesn't exist.

    Now to slap you around with your analogy:
    If you are inside the box, how can you see so clearly outside of it ?
    In those moments of meditation, or when something lifethreatning happens like an impending accident, or a beautiful sight in nature like a cliff on a summer day, no matter what circomstances might initiate it, there is a moment where your thoughts end. Your mind is dumbstruck, and all that remains is the watcher. You will have had these moments at least a few times in your life. At those moments the box is gone. You feel completely uninhibited by negative or positive thoughts, you are just basking in the completenes of the now.
    And finally after a few seconds, mind kicks in again. For a few moments you could see that there was no box, and crap, suddenly it's there again.

    Ever seen the movie "the Matrix" ? Neo meets a few prodigy's at the house of the Oracle, and a kid there is bending spoons. He made a profound remark: "Don't try to bend the spoon. That is impossible. Instead, try to realise the truth: There is no spoon !"

    I know, it's corny to use a moviequote, but it fit this example so beautifully.
    Don't try to break the box, that is impossible realise that the box never existed !
    I know I know... What I is having difficulty with what person ?

    It has been scientifically proven that the part of the brain that sends commands to the muscles to move becomes active a few milliseconds before the part of the brain that gives the order to grab that beer that you have on your desk.

    Who told that part of your brain to become active ?

    I have an even more troublesome claim for you:

    I was never born, and will never die.

    Chew on that ;)
     
  10. Midnight

    Midnight Member

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    I've read a bit here and there and learned a few things myself...

    Don't let Edwin get to you, he's a crazy person :p

    No, but I can relate to everything you can describe here, Paul. All the same things that make you annoyed, annoyed me as well.

    Especially the "you are not a person" talk. That got me feeling confused as well, because I always thought enlightenment was a thing that was for me and my body when I attain it. I own it, and it is mine. And the watcher analogy made me feel like I (or my body, rather) was just a robot and I had no say in anything and life was pointless because I'm not my body, anything I do, say, think or accomplish.

    The only thing they're saying is that the body and mind are not you. They are here, and they are experienced, but they are still not you. You are not the person, just what is watching the person. You can experience the body/mind and still know who you truly are.

    Enlightenment is just you being natural and true to yourself because you haven't gotten caught up in thoughts. It really is always there. The peace and bliss will arise eventually out of this realization, but having this realization and being aware (but maybe not always experiencing) whenever you can are important. You are enlightened, so trying to "earn" or "deserve" it doesn't make sense, because it's where you are by default.

    At times, It's strange to think that it's really that simple, even for me. I'm so used to working towards things, and having things be difficult, that sometimes my mind will create complexities because just being there was too easy. And that's fine. I let the mind do that, because it shall pass. It's always impermanent.

    Like you, I wanted a nice, neat little system to get there. But it's not really about getting anywhere. It's about seeing. What I realized I had to do to see was to walk through the fog. I spent a lot of time looking at that fog from afar, trying to look past it, or behind it. I would never walk through and past this fog, because I fear once I was engulfed in the fog, I would always be there.

    Extended analogies aside, Eckhart Tolle said it best when he mentioned to be peaceful, accept that you are not peaceful. It will transmute into peace. There is an undercurrent of peace when you learn to accept all things as they are. If you are confused, feel confused. If you are annoyed, feel annoyed. Do your best to feel it all completely. Be aware that it will never last. Getting through these emotions is how you allow yourself to walk through the fog, towards a brighter, side. But then you start to realize that the fog itself is lit by light. It doesn't make it go away, but you are aware of the impermanence, the undercurrent of peace, your true nature. It's all a beautiful experience.

    Hope this was useful in some way. :)
     
  11. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    I can assure you this isn’t lost on me, within the forum generally and also within this specific thread :).

    I happily stand corrected (especially when 2 trained fighters are knocking about! :D)

    Ha ha! Will do – a lot of food for thought here.

    Fear not – I think I’m big enough, and am definitely ugly enough :eek: to look after myself. To be honest I prefer people to get to the point, so the vibe of this discussion has been perfect for me :).

    Absolutely, as I find with the guys above, I generally tend to find something insightful woven into your postings and this one is no exception. It is definitely a post which I will be reading more than once.

    For me it’s brilliant having more than one perspective on anything, having different people noticing slightly different things. Also it’s nice to have the words of someone who has recently walked through the door alongside those of the two enlightenment veterans :p.

    I will take a bit of time to digest this thread along with the recent postings. I guess I want to try and absorb the meaning(s) rather than just read the words.

    Thanks to all for your thoughts/contributions :).

    Paul
     
  12. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Wow a veteran... I memorised the day when my searching ended:

    December 23 2009.
    I have had insights before that, but that wasn't enough to end the seeking.
    So hardly a veteran !
     
  13. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    That’s a much shorter timescale than I had imagined (and nearly 'Happy Anniversary' :)), but I was thinking in more relative terms to this threads contributors.

    After all, in the land of the blind even the one eyed man is king ;)
     
  14. Midnight

    Midnight Member

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    Glad that my words were useful to you. You will eventually understand, and your mind will eventually understand that it can't intellectually grasp it , and it will back off. Confusion and thinking you're lost are all part of the process. :)

    It will all come to you soon enough!
     
  15. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Help from other guru's

    I have searched for some texts online that might be of use for you.
    The guru's that are available are plenty, and why not make use of this wealth.

    So, 3 links for you:


    Interview with Radha Ma.

    This guru is not known except for those who come to India frequently. She has some pretty radical statements. Maybe one of them will hit home with you.
    Radha Ma - Texts

    My guru, Jan Koehoorn has written some texts, and one of them is about the "mountaintop question".
    Try and see if this hits home with you.
    Amigo #2/2001

    Or this one by another Dutch teacher, Hans Laurentius
    Amigo #2/2001


    What I would like you to do, is to read through these texts, and the sentences that cause resistance in you, please copy/paste them, and tell me why you feel resistance towards them.

    Love, Edwin
     
  16. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Hi Edwin sorry for butting in, but can you help me understand the Guru concept, you mentioned "My guru, Jan Koehoor" I understand what a guru is, but how did you find him, or did he find you, and what was the connection that resonated within you.

    Peace :)
    Mark
     
  17. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Well, I specifically searched for a guru in the ancient tradition of Advaita Vedanta, which originated in India some 5000 years ago.
    Mooji is a good example of a present-day Advaita teacher.

    Every country has at least some Advaita teachers, and if they are for real, they never go out looking for students, they let the students come to them.
    So, I started looking for Advaita teachers and found out that one of the Dutch teachers actually lived in the same town as me.
    He had his "awakening" in Michael's terms thanks to Alexander Smit, also a Dutch teacher who had spent several years with Nisargadatta Maharaj, a real Giant in Advaita who lived in India.

    What I did was look for texts online from different Advaita teachers, and look for one that appealed most to me.
    Jan Koehoorn was wonderfully direct and to the point, much like for instance "Sailor" Bob Adamson ( Also self-realised thanks to Nisargadatta ) from Australia who also appealed to me, but that wasn't ideal for me since I live in the Netherlands.

    But it may very well be that the teaching of Advaita doesn't appeal to you, so maybe you think that for instance Zen is more to your liking.
    Then it would be wise to find a Zen centre nearby.

    Or maybe Buddhism in general ?

    Whatever you look for, once it resonates within you, you will have found it.
    And then you can look for a teacher. It isn't a necessity to find a teacher, but it will greatly speed up the process.
     
  18. Karmoh

    Karmoh Member

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    Hi Edwin,

    Thank you.
    Awhile back I was under the impression that I didn’t require a teacher (Guru) as I had only to listen to myself.
    More or less, call off the search, You are already the Self, no need to seek for It.
    Due to this feeling I left my Buddhist practice behind and followed my own path, but some paths tend to lead you in circles. Which in itself is a clue?

    On nondual spirituality, I have read several texts by excellent nondual sages like Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Dadaji, Jnanesvar, and Bankei. Also on other aspects of spirituality, like the Buddha, Lao-tzu, Chuang-tzu, Jesus, Milarepa, Hakim Sana’i, Rumi, Moshe Cordovero, and many others.

    Maybe I’m not really seeking but having a fantasy about seeking :eek:

    I see Nisargadatta most popular book "I am That" have you read this?

    Peace :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2010
  19. harijan

    harijan Member

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    The Mind !!!

    "the mind is a powerful thing, it has created the entire universe and all the myriad life forms you see everywhere"

    Edwin, the above statement is a excerpt from Radha Ma - Texts.

    I have great difficulty in comprehending this.

    I have also read that the mind is an illusion and the world is a dream, so how come the physical world and universe seems so real?

    Is it "my" mind creating the universe? I feel like a part of the universe not the creator of the universe.

    I call it "my" mind because it stems from my experiences and is "my map of reality", or is there a universal mind or collective mind that creates the universe?

    I was born into the univese and it already existed (13.75 billion years), when I die and my mind is no more, will the universe still exist?

    If I were enlightened and not living through the mind would the universe still exist?

    I have read that everything (forms) comes from consciousness, and consciousness is all there is, so once again how come the world seems so real?

    Cheerz,
    Hari.
     
  20. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    I have not read it, no.

    I see that you have done a lot of reading.
    There is nothing wrong with that.

    However my experience is that a teacher is a whole different story.
    When reading, you can sit back and relax, and read it like a novel.
    A teacher, real life and ready to throw you off your feet, is quite challenging.
    This is when the real work starts. Even tho I agree that one doesn't need a teacher to reach enlightenment, why waste several good years on feeding your ego in it's pride that he can do it himself ?
    Isn't that just another attempt of the ego to prevent you from seeing the truth ? ;)
    But maybe the EnlightenQ program is a good way for you if you lack the time or effort to find a teacher. But you DO have to follow the instructions to the letter if you are going to do that. Simply reading or listening isn't enough, you have to live it, be it, experience it either through the instructions of a living teacher or the instructions of the Q Technique.

    Since Harijan had such an interesting question, I am going to answer it in the tradition of Advaita as if I were a guru, just as an example.
    Well, what is a dream ?

    When you are dreaming, are you aware if it ?
    I have dreamt several times that I could fly ! I loved it but had no idea that it was a dream at that time.
    Once I dreamt I was standing at the top of the stairs, and wanted to jump off the whole stairs in one jump. But I was scared I would break my leg, even tho I knew at that time that it was a dream. But what if it wasn't ?

    We can only tell it was "just a dream" when we wake up again.

    But what if you can awaken from your awake state as well ?
    Oh but it is your mind that is creating your universe. You have to rely on your eyes, ears, nose and skin to translate the things around you into images, sounds, smells, and touch.
    How do you know that when you see the colour blue, and everybody calls it blue, that you aren't the only person in the world that sees the colour red, but are used to it being called blue so just accepted it as truth ?
    And who is this "I" that is claiming to be the proud owner of your mind ?
    Is your "map of reality" experiencing or is it the result of experience ? Who'se experience is it then ?
    Ah, finally someone who can tell me about the start of the universe from his own personal experience. What was it like to see worlds and suns shape ?

    Isn't this also just a story, a concept, a product of mind ? When a scientist tells you this, how can you argue against him ? What proof do we have aside some logical assumptions ?
    Tonight when I go to sleep, I let go of EVERY concept, every idea I might have of the world, of myself, of others. My house disappears, my cat, my wife and two and a half child ( my wife is pregnant ;) ).
    Nothing I can take with me in that state.
    And people assume that the next day, they wake up as exactly the same person, even tho their whole ego, all mind made assumptions of who they are, have been gone for 8 hours.

    I was born this morning. I will probably die tonight.
    And yet, I was never born, and will never die.
    If I were to knock you out, whould the universe still exist ?
    Having read that everything comes from consciousness isn't enough to understand this.
    First you need to see that you are consciousness. And then you need to see that everybody and everything else is consciousness.

    But consciousness has no meaning if it can't express itself.
    What would the meaning of the universe have been if no life would have formed ? Nothing there, no experience what so ever in any way.
    Worlds may collide, suns may blow up, no tragedy what so ever, who cares ?
    And still form, everything has been formed from the nothing and yet everything that consciousness is.

    But now life exists.

    Define life. What seperates humans from for instance a robot, which can be made to do exactly the same, execute the same functions through programming ?

    What differenciates a human from a robot ? Consciousness !
    What put consciousness in a human ?

    Nothing, it was allready there, and the human appears in consciousness instead of the other way around.
    What other use would the senses of the body have than to translate the world of form to consciousness ?
    Why would every human have to be equipped with a mind, with memory to function in the world if consciousness would also have these characteristics ?

    Consciousness exists only now, because it is not inside time.
    Consciousness wouldn't be able to observe time unless it was outside of time.
    If you take a look at the clock now, you will see the time now.

    If you look at the clock in 5 minutes, you will still see the time now, but 5 minutes will have passed. You can only observe this because who you really are isn't affected by time, it exists only now.

    Time is just as much an illusion as form is. For proof of that, read some stuff about quantum physics. The only reason why the physical world seems so real is because the body is part of the illusion of form.
    It isn't seperated from form, it is part of it.

    Only consciousness, which is not part of the world of form, is not made out of atoms but that in which atoms are able to form, can observe this because it is not part of it.

    I can't wait for your reaction ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2010

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