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Anticipation

Discussion in 'Mind, Body & Spirit' started by Mr Monkey, Oct 17, 2010.

  1. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Edwin,

    In response to your questions:

    If you truly live in the present moment, would you still feel the need to anticipate anything ?
    As I understand it no, as you would be focused on the present moment not the future (or the past for that matter). This is what made me think as I've seen a few comments from people who 'get it' (enlightenment or which ever word you wish to use) that they are 'looking forward' to things. To switch this slightly, most of the stuff I have read on this suggests that the way out of fear/anxiety is to live in the present moment, so you don't reflect on what has happened and don't get lost in mental projections about the future, which makes sense. If this is correct then surely 'looking forward' to something (good or bad, or from a non-dualistic viewpoint anything) is a departure from the present moment, which suggests to me that the person isn't fully enlightened (but equally it could be my understanding of enlightenment that is at fault).

    And another question:
    What are you anticipating right now ? Does your precious ego tell you to watch out for an incoming meteorite ? Maybe there is some toxic chemical in the air that you are breathing right now, and you could be dead in 30 minutes.
    Or the chair you are sitting on, will it hold you or can you fall over any minute ?

    As you illustrate there are many different things I could look into the future for but don't. I think what you suggesting here is that people only anticipate certain things, maybe only those things that my ego has a vested interested in?

    You live under the illusion that you have your life firmly in control, that you are in the command seat of your life.
    But really, if this were true, how is it that your life isn't going completely the way you want all the time ?
    We are not in the business of acting, but in the business of re-acting to whatever life brings us. No need to anticipate anything. That doesn't mean that you can throw away your agenda, or stop paying for your life-insurance, it just means that if you look upon what is, right now, without thinking about it, as if through the eyes of a new-born baby, your reaction to whatever life brings you will be much more accurate to this particular situation than it would have been if you had anticipated it.
    Get my drift ?

    I sort of get your drift; my problem is that I can see a conflict between living in the now and planning things. To plan/anticipate something I'd think "OK I need to go to the shops, I need to get x, y, z" or I need to complete "Job 1, 2 and 3 later", now if I was focussed on the present moment fully surely I wouldn't focus on the planning thoughts, a new born baby certainly wouldn't which is where I don't understand.

    "But if you are always ready to accept everything you see as something that appears from nothing... At that moment you will have achieved complete peace of mind." Shunryn Suzuki
    This ones thrown me a bit... I can accept that thoughts just 'pop up' and we have no control over them - but it’s a bit harder to apply if this is looking at things in a wider context and is suggesting everything in the physical World ‘just popped up’.

    Thanks for taking the time out to reply, you certainly provided some food for thought and but I get the feeling I'm having to be spoon fed, so your patience is appreciated.

    I will of course be interested in your response, but in the mean time I will try my best not to anticipate it ;)

    Cheers, Paul
     
  2. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    You can get as philosphical about this as you want, but mind will never grasp the concept of enlightenment because the only way to experience it is to realise that you exist outside your mind.
    When someone tells me I am out of my mind I actually thank them ;)

    Now, when you try to make me believe that someone can only be fully enlightened when they can't plan ahead or remember anything from the past anymore, do you not feel that you are missing the point yourself ?
    First of all according to that point of view an enlightened one would be restricted in his or her way of life rather than someone who isn't enlightened.
    Then only very silly people would want to become enlightened right ?

    Enlightenment doesn't mean that you can't think ahead or remember anything anymore, it means that you realise that even the planning ahead or remembering occurs in the now.

    well... I meant it more as an illustration how you think that you are planning ahead, but that it is impossible to keep all things in check. You just live under the illusion that you can plan everything ahead.
    But planning ahead is ok, it's more that with the ego, you are more worrying ahead rather than planning ahead.
    .....
    Wow, you are really mixing up concepts here aren't you ?;)
    the baby example is not to illustrate how happy a baby is because he is not planning, the baby example is to illustrate how you can look at everything in the world as if it is for the first time.
    I can demonstrate that with this:
    Let's say that you have a beautiful old tree in your garden.
    If you look out the window, you expect the tree to be there.
    This expectation is normal, as you have no reason to believe that the tree would be gone.
    However, often when we look out the window, instead of actually looking at the tree, we still see the image of the tree we have in our head before we are looking.
    It's a tree, brown trunk, green leaves.

    However, if you would look outside as if with the eyes of a baby, as if looking at it for the first time, you see that the trunk of the tree is actually grey with brown and green and yellow spots on top of that, and the structure of the tree looks wonderfully complex.
    And yes, the leaves are green, but the top of the leaves are darkgreen and the bottom is lightgreen, and when the wind touches the leaves, they seem to flash light and dark green at you in a dazzling pattern.

    So, what Shunryn Suzuki meant, is that when you don't look out the window, in your mind you will know that the tree is there, but you can only see how beautiful it really is the moment it appears in "your" consciousness.

    I am not doubting the fact that the tree was there when you weren't looking, I am not stupid, I know it is still there.
    On the other hand, it becomes real when it appears in you, and when you look away, it disappears from you, and the tree that you produce in your mental image is not real anymore.
    Everything appears and disappears in your consciousness like that, light, sounds, thoughts, emotions...
    They appear, and they disappear. The only constant factor is you, in which everything appears and disappears :)
     
  3. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    I think (and it certainly seems like) I confuse myself trying to get my head round this stuff, maybe I need to reread/rewatch a few things or possibly just take a break from trying to understand for a while. On the plus side at least I know I'm going off course so I've go the chance to correct it :).

    Its odd in that I can sense that there is something really good/valuable there (in the understanding) but at the same time can't grasp it, the penny just doesn't seem to want to drop :eek:.

    Thanks for taking the time to reply, it's appreciated.
     
  4. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Ok, let me just pick up on one of the answers you gave to Edwin and see if I can assist...

    It's absolutely fine to plan things in advance, and to look to the future and that doesn't mean that you're not living in the present moment. They key is how you 'reason' what the future will be and whether your reasoning of the future is flexible enough to adapt as the present moment changes (to the present moment, if you get my drift hehe!).

    Often, we create some idea about the future and we base it on our past experience. That's ok to a point providing it's based on the facts of the past, but our mind is a good trickster as Edwin says, and it will merge memories together and insert a few emotions for good measure and all of a sudden this future we're creating in our mind is made up of a lot of things from the past that really don't need to be there. That isn't reasoning, that's the mind playing with you (creating fear in a lot of cases).

    Take the example of going for an interview...

    Let's say you've been for interviews before and always felt very nervous and felt you have had trouble putting yourself across positively and struggled to get the job. Now this next interview, you have a choice. You can let your mind create the future idea of what this interview is going to be like, based on your past interviews and let it put in a few of those emotions and false ideas for you, "I'm going to be so nervous", "I don't know what to say to them" etc. etc. or you can use reason to plan for the interview... i.e. consider what sort of questions you were asked before that you may need to answer this time; what sort of person they are looking for in that job role; what questions you may want to ask them; what time you need to set out from home to get there with some time to spare etc. Reason tells you that there's no point in worrying or having fear about the future because it hasn't happened yet and you can't possibly know as fact what will happen; in fact Reason tells you that any worries and fears come from the past experience and no two experiences are the same, so why should this future interview be the same. You can go to the interview and use what skills and knowledge you have to answer the questions they ask. They may not be all the questions you were expecting, but by going into it without the fears of the past and remaining in the present moment when you're there, you will be listening to what it is they are asking you and the answer, if it's something you can answer, will come to you without having to think about it. The truth doesn't require thinking about. (I'm sure you're aware there are far too many people who go to an interview with worries and fears and don't answer the question that they are being asked, because they aren't present and thus aren't listening).

    Being present doesn't mean forgetting everything that's gone on before, it means acting on the situation as it is presently, using skills and truthful knowledge and facts you have gained from the past without tainting them with the things the mind and ego want to put on top of it. Yes, not everything may have gone well in the past, but you can't expect the future to be the same, you can only use the facts of what happened in the past as lessons to assist in the present to create the future you want. Act rather than Re-Act.

    ;)

    Hugs

    Giles
     
  5. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Sure, no problem ! :)

    The only way to explain non-duality is through words and thoughts, which are part of the dual world. No wonder that words seem to contradict each other all the time, words are dual, and the message is non-dual.
    The only way to "get it" is to keep on asking questions, and wait for the words to sink in. Most Advaita teachers agree that that moment on which the penny drops can be considered as "grace".
    No matter how hard you work to understand it, you just have to wait for it.

    Having said that, even tho it again seems contradictionairy, there are some things you can do to improve your chances.

    - First, have faith that it can and will happen. Trust the Universe to know what's best for you. It will happen when it will happen.

    - If you find a teacher, trust that teacher completely ( unless you are asked to sell all your worldly properties and give your money to him :p)

    - The experience you have from meditation will help you immensely. During meditation you will have learned to accept - and not attach to - thoughts and emotions. Now try to apply that knowledge to your daily life. Really, what is different from meditation compared to daily life ? In meditation thoughts and emotions come up and disappear in you, the same thing always happens when you are not in meditation. Thoughts come up, emotions come up. The only difference is that while meditating, you don't attach to the thoughts, and in daily life you seem to think that it is nessacary to do attach to every thought and emotion. Stop that !

    Instead, try to figure out who sees those thoughts and emotions come up and disappear again. And if you really do see those thoughts and emotions come up, that must mean that they are not part of You, right ?

    **PS Great explanation Giles :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2010
  6. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Gents,

    As ever, thanks to you both. I've read both responses and they have helped to move my understanding in the right direction. I've followed up Edwin’s post with a few comments (rather than questions), but if I've seems like I've gone way off course again, please nudge (but by now you maybe ready to shove :D) me in the right direction.

    Its that sort of stuff that bends my head a bit ;). I've read/watched Eckhart Tolle, watched some Mooji and read a bit of 'Sailor Bob' and parts of each make sense or feel right. But half the time its like I'm trying to tune onto a frequency that I just can't get hold of for long, so can only get snippets of information/understanding from time to time :confused:. But from what I've read on here and elsewhere, I can't expect my little Monkey mind to grasp this type of thinking fully as it always thinks in positive/negative.

    Something that really did hit me once when I was listening to ET and two things he said (which I paraphrase):
    'Your name is just a mental basket into which your mind puts all your past experiences (success/failures) along with accompanying emotions'
    'Imagine life if you didn't have a name'

    On one occasion after hearing that my past and future seemed to dissolve and I felt myself going really deep within myself into what seemed like a lot of space and feeling a bit 'at one with things'. A nice experience but not one I have been able to recreate or have attached too much significance too. I have had similar'ish experiences on the odd occasion reading and watching other things, but not to the same degree. So I feel I may have 'dipped my toe in' a little non-duality but am still very much on the outskirts.

    Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr :mad: :D

    In honesty I'm not 100% it will happen to me, but its nice to think its a possibility and I feel naturally drawn towards these types of teachings.

    I am getting a bit better at watching thoughts/emotions and for the most part they feel a bit more distant when I do catch them. This follows my experiences over time meditation in that they (the ones I call 'good', but I know I shouldn't really label any session :eek:) have gradually got deeper. So hopefully chipping away at things, albeit slowly :).

    Cheers,
    Paul
     
  7. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    The explanation is quite simple. The mind is made to work within this realm of duality. It's task is to box and label things. It has to work with measurements, degrees, amounts and so on.
    What good would your mind be if you didn't know just how much coughsirop you are supposed to take ? Would your house still be standing if the measurements by the construction workers were all wrong ?

    The mind is a beautiful tool that is needed to make daily life possible.

    However, in order to understand things, it has to give things a place, to box and label it like I said. However there are certain things that the mind will never grasp.

    Example:
    A simple word like " infinity " is a nice attempt of the mind to box and label something endless. It made a word, stamped that on an idea of what infinity might be according to the mind, and done, the mind can let it go.
    But now try to imagine what it would be like to fly your spaceship through infinate space, nothing to slow you down, you would just go on and on and on, nothing stopping you, a never ending story.
    The theory is that space will never ever end, there are no "outskirts of the universe", there is no end, it just goes on and on.
    If you really try to grasp what that means with your mind, you should by now start to get a bit queezy, maybe even a bit dizzy trying to grasp the concept of something that can never be caught in a concept. It is without end, without boundries, and mind can't accept that.

    Another example ( a favourite with me )
    A simple word like " hole ".
    There is a hole in my sock.
    The mind tries to tell you that your sock isn't whole, complete anymore.
    But naming something that isn't there is actually impossible.
    A hole is "nothing with something around it".
    How can you conceptualise something that isn't there ?
    That's right, very good, every time your mind tries to understand, it will fail. The real problem here is that you are saying " I don't understand ".
    You know allready from meditation that thoughts come up and disappear by themself. You can't stop a thought as you don't know when it will come up.
    They don't announce themselves until they are allready there.

    So, the fact that you are thinking is actually a misconception by itself.
    You are not thinking, thoughts are coming up in that which is watching them.
    The Real You.

    Michael has this nice example in the meditation course, to see thoughts come up and go by like watching clouds on a summer day.
    The clouds come up, flow by, and move away from sight. Nothing you can do about them.
    How could you ?
    Now, if thoughts are the same as clouds, how is it that we can say "I am thinking" but when watching clouds we don't say "I am clouding" ?
    Why does "I am clouding" sound rediculous and "I am thinking" doesn't ?

    This misconception is based on your belief that you are your mind. That the apparatus that is producing thoughts is who you are.
    But how can that be ? If you are able to watch the thoughts come up and disappear, how can you be part of it ? An observer has to be seperate from that which he is observing. And you have proven to yourself allready through meditation that you are observing thoughts.
    To me that sounds rediculous, because I know that you are allready non-dual, but because you still firmly believe the thoughts that come up that claim to be who you are, ( just count the number of I's in what you wrote above and tell me which one of those didn't start as a thought ) the truth ( or the true you actually ) is covered up by a lot of thoughts claiming to be you.
    Keep going, ponder over what I just said, and whatever you don't understand, ask me please !
     
  8. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Reading through this thread reminded me of when I first read "Think and grow rich" - please stay with me as I am hopefully not digressing away from what is being said here.

    Someone suggested that I would "understand and get it" by the time I had read the first 67 pages.

    I read that book with so much intensity - I over complicated it so much that I didn't think I got it - I was searching and trying so hard to understand the message because I was desparate to find the answer.

    Looking back now, I realise the answer is in the title :)

    With meditation and being present, I think we can fall into the same trap. We can over complicate and try so hard to get somewhere instead of just trusting, relaxing and enjoying the moment.

    Clear thinking, solutions to problems are just a couple of the myriad of benefits to be enjoyed through regular meditation and I particularly want to keep this very simple so I will not list all the benefits I personally enjoy in my daily life.

    Here are two scenarios of how a present situation can be absolutely glorious or totally overlooked:-

    Scenario 1:-

    The winds had picked up and as Joe looked out of the window he saw thousands of leaves covering the stone pathway. "Oh hell, I've got too much to do today and the rest of the week to clear this lot away. What if it rains before I get a chance to get the leaf blower out - they'll be all soggy and I'll have to do it all by hand. I always said three acres was too much to look after! I didn't expect to have to deal with the leaves for another month - just my luck! I'll probably slip and fall, like last year if they pile up much more because the rain will make them all slippy.

    Scenario 2:-

    The winds had picked up while Joe was meditating and as he stepped outside he found himself in the middle of the most glorious display of coloured leaves, swirling from above and fluttering to the ground creating a beautiful autumnal carpet - WOW - the scene was breathtaking. As he stood enjoying this natural wonder, he gazed in awe at the front of the house - the green leaves had turned into the most amazing red - it was a total transformation and so beautiful. This would give the family the opportunity to try out his new toy! He would check out the weather and prioritize some time for the yearly leaf collecting, however, for now, he would just soak in all the beauty and magnificense of the moment.

    This is what the thread made me think of and hope it isn't off track.

    Wishing you an abundance of peace, joy and wonderous moments :) :) :)
     
  9. Tom and Kathy

    Tom and Kathy Member

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    in the moment

    Thank you Pollyanna! I agree with the simplistic path of acceptance and allowing. Our thoughts, or perceptions become our world-illusion or not, so I prefer to know that I am attracting or vibrating with the perfect experiences for my present level of awareness. Meditation assists me to deepen that awareness so I attract/vibrate at my highest possible level for the greater good of all. We were given a mind and the capacity for thought for a reason so I do not trouble myself with fears of being human for that is my journey here, now, in this incarnation. Again meditation opens that door between my illusionary human existence and my divine soul and it is in that exquisite communion that I feel 100% present. Kathy
     
  10. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Very much on-topic Pollyanna !

    Pollyanna is a perfect example of someone having complete faith that the Universe will provide exactly what is needed. The rock-solid faith that Pollyanna has is just another road towards enlightenment.

    Her approach is called "Bhakti Yoga".
    For Pollyanna this discussion seems over-complicated, because of her approach.
    Pollyanna approaches the world through emotions rather than the intellectual approach.
    To her it would seem that we are making things too complicated for ourselves, if only we would have a little more faith ;)
    However, it takes increadible will-power and dedication to have faith even when emotions are telling you otherwise, and I have to salute Pollyanna for her strength.
    Unfortunately, not everybody has either that strength, or like me, not everybody can do this on faith alone. I wanted proof, evidence, called the "Jnani Yoga" approach.
    Maybe it has to do with the fact that I was born a male ;)

    In the end, when the moment of insight comes, a Jnani has to become Bhakti, and a Bhakti has to become Jnani.
    In other words, when you take the Jnani approach, you have to realise that faith is equally important, and a Bhakti approach will see that faith alone is not enough.
     
  11. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Hi Edwin, :confused: this thread is definitely too complicated and deep for me, however, I am not suggesting you or anyone else make things too complicated :) Indeed I have seen a number of threads in the community with multiple people seeming to understand and enjoy these conversations. Even though some of them may as well be written in Japaneze to me, I understand they are of great interest to others.

    It’s very kind of you to salute my strength although I do need proof also ;)

    This I find in the benefits in my daily life, allowing me to continue to trust that regular meditation is doing whatever is best for me.

    I do have complete faith in the Universe, however, this is only because I control my own thoughts and emotions now, rather than allowing them to control me. I know that I create my own future (even though it is an illusory one ;))

    And I also know that I slip up big sometimes. It just came to my attention recently and like a bolt out of the blue, that I had allowed my dream wheel to virtually sieze up :eek: Big mistake, or just a little nudge to apply some oil to get it moving again :)

    Are we on the same wavelength or do I seem to be talking double dutch?

    As always, I wish you continued peace and joy :) :) :)
     
  12. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    I was trying to point out how there are several roads towards the same goal, one road is that of faith, and another one is that of trying to find proof ;) I wasn't suggesting that you were thinking anything about us, just poor translations on my part :eek: Sorry about that.
    For you the proof is in the pudding so to speak, you have found proof that the LOA works for you after having had faith for several years. You didn't have any proof that it would work at that time, that is why I think it is so special that you kept visualising your future. You are a star ! :cool:
    That there is exactly what I mean with Bhakti. It means allready living the life of an enlightened one, even tho you haven't had that moment of insight. I can't think of a person better to achieve this than you, as you can hold on to your faith even when things are in the slumps. You don't seem to know how special this is, so I am telling you right here :cool:
    LOL !!! :D double dutch !
    Same to you :):):)
     
  13. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Pollyanna,

    I'm grateful that you shared you thoughts, thank you :). I don't think your too far off the mark with me trying too hard, I do get the urge to club myself over the head for not 'getting it' (which I know isn't a productive way to gain understanding :D). A lot of this type of stuff seems counter-intuitive and I know I shouldn't get frustrated, but I do feel for me there is a lot of value for me in pursing this way of thinking/life which is why I'm so eager to understand.

    I know you mentioned this type of discussion isn't really you cup of tea, but I think one of the nice things about this community. In that there are many different approaches to attaining happiness, peace and even prosperity. I'd be surprised if many people agree with everything written within the community, and funnily enough that’s one of the reasons I like it. All these different viewpoints etc being aired, discussed and even debated - but in a respectful and positive environment :).

    I see what your saying with you two scenario’s and that type of thinking has slowly come more into my life over the last year or so, but I'm far from a master at it. I guess like a lot of things its something to slowly cultivate over time.

    Edwin,

    Thank you for another intriguing post :), I will reflect on it and in the words of a certain Mr A. Schwarzenegger…..I’ll be back ;).

    Cheers, Paul
     
  14. pollyanna

    pollyanna Moderator

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    Hehehe Edwin, my instincts were right - double dutch :)

    I'm glad you're enjoying your intriguing journey Paul and I agree, variety is the spice of life :)

    When I watched "What the bleep do we know" someone asked the question "How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go" and I instantly thought, as far as it goes :)

    Here's to looking into and searching as far as we all choose. Wishing us all an abundance of peace and joy on our journeys of self discovery :) :) :)
     
  15. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Please do ! :) For some strange reason people can wake me up in the middle of the night for these kinds of discussions ;) I love them !
     
  16. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    Paul,
    I just felt like giving you another nudge:
    Thinking you shouldn't get frustrated is exactly the opposite of what enlightenment is.

    With you, as you are so convinced that you are your mind, you are actually thinking that you are causing the feelings of frustration coming up ( remember the cloud analogy ?).
    Then a new emotion or thought arises, saying 'why am I getting frustrated' and you instantly believe that the 'I' in that thought is who you are.
    So now you have a big problem, you obviously produced feelings of frustration, and now you disagree with that feeling and feel bad for feeling frustrated.

    When however you realise that you are not your mind, that mind merely serves on it's own to produce thoughts and emotions, you might notice frustration to come up.
    You observe the frustration effortlessly, and feel it completely, and then it disappears again. End of story, in fact, no story at all ;)
     
  17. Mr Monkey

    Mr Monkey Member

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    Thanks Edwin, much appreciated and also I feel with me, much needed ;). I've given your post(s) plenty of thought, as you’ll shortly find out….

    Well I hope I haven’t woken you :D, but I hope you do like the discussions as this is a bit of a monster post :eek:

    The second of the two quotes above follows a paragraph of mine in a previous post where I mentioned that I’ve read that my mind can’t understand. Unfortunately (for me) reading what’s meant to be and actually truly believing/understanding are two different things.

    In honesty my response would be, how do you know you enlightened without using your mind to know? Surely it is you mind through which you rationally think, “OK I’ve twigged”, “OK I’ve seen through the mirage” or however you wish to say it.

    I can logically say I know that there is something behind the thoughts, because as you say something watches thought/emotion whilst I am meditating. Also I can appreciate that emotions aren’t ‘me’ because they do change with time. Yet I can’t quite see/appreciate what others (of the enlightened variety) see, be it obvious or not.

    Following on from above, that makes sense. I used to have massive problems with anxiety; I couldn’t think straight most days and in some situations I’d even lose my vision temporarily due to the amount anxiety, which may sound far fetched but it is unfortunately true. But, even when things were really bad I sometimes sensed there was something calm behind the anxiety, so I am aware of it (my true self), but just can’t tap into it very often.

    OK, at this moment I’m feeling a bit hacked off at myself as I just don’t ‘get it’. Currently, as I am writing this response I’m using these feelings to “get to the bottom of the issue”, or to gain an understanding of what I don’t understand. I guess I flip/flop between the ‘good’ feelings or desire of wanting to achieve an understanding and also there is some determination to ‘crack it’

    Now I appreciate that both these approaches use emotions, desire & anger, which are both really no, no’s and something to watch not react to. But if I didn’t use them as drivers (and this follows countless examples in the World) what would get achieved?

    I can see the sense in watching anger to prevent yourself from tw*ting someone annoying or biting your lip to prevent causing offence. But on the same note anger can be a driver for good too, Bob Geldof was hacked off with a situation and the outcome was band aid, red nose day in UK, and other positive benefits.

    Also without desire what would you want to achieve in life? Now I’m not talking a James bond villain manic type ‘take over the World’ desire here (as I stroke my white cat….:p) but for me to do anything I must in some shape of form have a desire to do it. For me to go out for daily exercise I must either have a desire to walk/exercise and/or have some fresh air and/or stay in shape etc, so desire is the driver. For me to be a mature student I must have a desire to achieve the end goal (which gets me though the bits that are hard/tough!). Even a simple thing like taking my niece & nephew to the park requires desire on my part, otherwise I wouldn’t do it.

    Soooooooo, this basically boils down to, if I just watched my emotions all the time and released them what would I act on? It’d be nice to just sit in a chair, feet up watching all my thoughts/emotions float by, bit if I watched everything go by, then what would I do? I think it was Giles that said “Act don’t react”, which is what I feel the above falls into.

    On reflection (I’ve just reread the quote), are you simply saying that it is OK to have these feelings/emotions etc, just don’t feel bad about it?

    My understanding of a ‘story’ as was that everyone has past experiences/memories etc, but if you attach feelings to them, that’s when your creating the story. I don’t feel I’m doing that here, so have I missed a trick? :confused:

    Thanks,
    Paul
     
  18. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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    First of all, you are doing great.

    The questions you ask show that you really do ponder over it, in a sensible way.
    So, drop any belief you might have about frustration.
    You are doing great, and are heading in the right direction. Instead of focusing on the endpoint, enjoy the ride ;)

    Now I will filter out the most important questions you asked and answer them for you, hoping it will guide you in the right direction.
    EXCELLENT QUESTION !!

    You are completely right, it is impossible to formulate words without the mind.

    If I were to say "I am fully enlightened" that would actually be a sign that I am not.
    The trick however is not in the words itself, it is possible to talk from truth.
    If you own a red bike, and someone tells you that you have a blue bike, you can safely tell him he is wrong because the fact that your bike is red is true.
    Some people can disagree with you for all their worth, your bike will always stay red.
    You can feel the truth behind the words when you tell that sucker that your bike is red, right ?

    Ok, so why is saying "I am enlightened" not possible ? It is impossible because of the "I" word.
    "I" implies that there is still belief in the person Edwin, that the person Edwin exists.
    Giles explained in a different post somewhere that the word Person comes from the latin word "Persona" which literally means "Mask".
    Is a mask who you are ?
    Does the word "I" point towards my body, my mind, or who I really am, the watcher of all that happens ?

    And if I really am not a person, what am I ?
    That is one step too far for now. I will come back to this further down. Forget about that for now.
    Now we are getting to the real heart of all.
    You allready know from experience that you are not your thoughts, and not your emotions. In a way, you have no idea how fortunate you are to have anxiety issues. They are the most obvious pointers towards truth !

    the words you spoke ring of truth ( you DO have a red bike ) until the last sentence:
    First of all, do you accept the fact that your true self ALWAYS watches EVERYTHING ?

    Even when there is a serious belief in a seperate person called Paul, doesn't your Self see that you are believing this ?
    So, wether you can "tap into it" or not, it is always there right ?

    So, if there is no person called Paul, who is suffering from anxiety ?

    The moment of insight, awakening basically means that you don't just intellectually understand that there is a watcher behind your thoughts, but that you are the watcher allready, and that thoughts always come up in you, wether you choose to believe them to be you or not.
    AAh, the famous mountaintop question ;)

    When enlightened, if all desires fall away, how is it that enlightened ones don't just simply sit down on a mountaintop and stop being productive ?

    In EnlightenQ, Michael uses the famous quote, "If you prick us, do we not bleed, if you tickle us, do we not laugh ?"

    The only difference between a realised or awakened one and someone who still firmly believes in being a person, is exactly that.
    Desires still come up, they are products of the mind.
    And they can be followed or not.
    The only difference is that there is no person here.
    There is no belief that it is MY desire, because there is no Me in the first place. The person Edwin can't be troubled by desires, because the person Edwin doesn't exist.
    So, coming back to the question you asked before:
    For me, it is as if watching a movie, with the lead player Edwin, acting and thinking and feeling on it's own, answering your questions, all the while realising that I am not Edwin, but that which is watching Edwin.
    And an interesting movie it is !


    Almost there. It's not attaching feelings to them, this happens on it's own. If you remember your grandparents who died you will automatically feel both sad and filled with love and gratitude for having known them.
    It's not the attachment of feelings to that memory, it is the attachment of the "I" thought.

    Who am I ?

    I am not only saying that it is ok to have these feelings and emotions, I am saying that there is nothing you can do to stop them anyway ! You will only notice them by the time they are there ! That doesn't only make feeling bad afterwords redicoulous, it is a simple waste of effort ! Why bother feeling bad about a feeling that you didn't even produce ? The feeling is just there to be experienced, so experience it and wait for the next emotion to come knocking on your door !

    I think that this will be enough to make you feel completely confused again ;) so I will patiently await your responses :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2010
  19. Edwin

    Edwin Member

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  20. GilesC

    GilesC Member

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    Slight correction. ;)

    Personality comes from the latin 'Persona' which means 'Mask'.

    I guess the word 'Person' has some obvious relation as well, but it's the personalities that we adopt throughout our daily life that are our masks. i.e. my 'Work personality' during the working day, my 'Son personality' with my parents, my 'Lover personality' :D etc.

    We can't BE all these different personality, we can just put on those masks for different situations... OR we can choose to let go of the personalities and just be truthful in all situations.

    Hugs

    Giles
     

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