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Old May 16th, 2010, 20:25   #1 (permalink)
Panthau (Offline)
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Default Torn between doing and being still

Hi,

Im really torn. So what about all these yoga, pranayama, samyama, whatever?

Papaji says "The concept of every exhausting spiritual practice, which gets you to your desired goal, is a new entanglement in the game of light without substance."

On the other hand, we´re a meditating community, arent we? It is good for something... is it good to find out that we dont need any meditation? And what about the other "tools" like mentioned above?

I have this picture of someone trying to climb a mountain to get back to the ground on the other side.

Thanks!
Pan
 
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Old May 16th, 2010, 21:26   #2 (permalink)
Ta-tsu-wa (Offline)
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Originally Posted by Panthau View Post
Im really torn...Papaji says...
And Muktananda says... And D.T. Suzuki says... And Wayne Dyer says... And Yogananda says... And Lao Tsu says... And Thomas Merton says... And Deepak Chopra says... and Zarathustra says... And the Bhagavad Gita says... and the Bible says... and the Tibetan Book of the Dead says...

If you read and listen long enough you'll soon realize that everyone has something to say. Inevitably you'll uncover conflict and even outright contradictions between them. All of them are just fingers pointing towards the moon. They're not the moon. They all speak or write from their own perspective, to a particular audience with needs that are peculiar to that audience; to that culture; to that time period. Each taught based on their unique personal experiences. Some things overlap and some things don't. Some things harmonize nicely and other things seem to crash headlong into the others. Don't lose sleep over it.

There will always be fingers pointing to the moon. There will always be "someone who says..." Forget the pointing fingers. Look at the moon. Experience the moon for yourself.

What is it "Pan says..."?
 
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Old May 16th, 2010, 23:01   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks Ta-tsu-wa, i understand.

What is it "Pan says..."?
He seems confused. Feels like im starring at a wall,
wondering where the wall is. When can i allow myself to
not ask anymore, but see?
 
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Old May 17th, 2010, 00:54   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Panthau View Post
He seems confused. Feels like im starring at a wall,
wondering where the wall is.
That sounds like the perfect place to be. That sense of confusion is what will motivate you to move beyond it. Just don't get hung up on what others say about the journey. Take the sayings and teachings of everyone as nothing more than an approximation of what they themselves experienced along their own path. Knowing where others have been is an important starting point for your search, but their experiences are only the beginning of your own journey, not its end.
 
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Old May 17th, 2010, 09:16   #5 (permalink)
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Yeah maybe its a good place to be, being sick of books, concepts and even my own
thoughts.

Also called mood swings lol
 
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Old May 17th, 2010, 17:51   #6 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Panthau View Post
Yeah maybe its a good place to be, being sick of books, concepts and even my own thoughts.
Why do you think the thoughts are "yours"? How do you know they're yours? Have you ever met the "you" that's having those thoughts?

Who are you, Pan? ARE you Pan? Or do you only think you're Pan? If that's the case, who is it that is thinking they're Pan? And is that person in fact thinking at all? Or is that person merely catching hold of random "Pan thoughts" as they drift by?

Oh, my... Did I just think all that nonsense and type it out? Or did you think it and I typed it? Or did someone else think it and we're both reading it just now for the first time?

Which is it, Pan? Does it even matter?

Think about that.

Or don't. It makes no difference. Those thoughts will all be there later if you decide it's worth looking at them. And they'll be there later if you decide it's not worth it.

I think...?
 
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Old May 17th, 2010, 20:13   #7 (permalink)
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I should have never begun with all these concepts. The Problem is, i know it, i know that my "i" is just a bunch of thoughts and conditionings... but that makes it even worse. My mind shows me the concept, instead of looking at the text without much interpretation.

When i look back, there´s much Pan here... talking about this or that, having great ideas and insights. But its all the intellectual Pan, who understands everything. I feel like a chatterbox.

Looks like im still scared of opening up to the truth, and instead creating myself pictures of it. Im fed up with it.
 
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Old May 17th, 2010, 22:21   #8 (permalink)
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Your "I" is not a bad thing, Pan. Consider this: Suppose all of us originate in some vast, infinite Intelligence that is in, through, and of all things, sort of the way that eastern religions view things. Let's say that they're right, and that's where all of us come from and what all of us belong to, even if we don't experience that fact right at this moment.

Alright, then at some point this infinite Self decided it should experience itself as little, individual "I"s, one of which is known on this forum as Pan, another as Ta-Tsu-Wa. So here we are, having this discussion. And Pan thinks that he should somehow dissolve his "I" and blend seamlessly back into the infinite Intelligence from whence he came. He's somehow gotten it in his head his "I" is an undesirable thing he must overcome and blend out of existence.

Why? What is the source of such a belief? Something you've heard? Something you're read? Something others have taught to you? You were already a seamless part of the infinite Intelligence before it determined it should create little individuals. In Its infinite wisdom It understood that to be nothing but One, without any other is not the highest or most desirable state. If the truth was otherwise It would never have bothered to fashion individual "I"s in the first place.

But it did, and you and I are the proof of that. Is regaining our sense of Oneness important? It probably is. But is it the total goal of the master plan of infinite Intelligence? Obviously not. Our sense of individuality must be important and it must be a crucial factor in the intentions of infinite Intelligence. Perhaps in the end our sense of individuality will turn out to be a form of illusion, but it is a worthwhile and necessary illusion that serves a purpose largely beyond what we comprehend at this point in time.

Of course you don't want to slip into the trap of accepting your "I" as being the ONLY facet to your existence. If perceiving ourselves ONLY as the One was insufficient to the purposes of infinite Intelligence it stands to reason that making the same mistake with individuality is equally insufficient. When we awaken we experience ourselves both as One and as Individual. That seems to be the design of the great plan of infinite Intelligence.

So give yourself a break. It's intended you will both enjoy and explore your individuality in all its wonders, just as it's intended you will come to reclaim the knowledge of what it is to be the One itself. Whichever aspect of your Being you work on, Oneness, or Individuality, it all serves the great purpose. You shouldn't be discouraged one way or the other. Be with both.

You remember what I wrote about "Someone says..."? Well, now "Ta-Tsu-Wa says..." and you can take that with as much of a grain of salt as all those other folks I mentioned.

Last edited by Ta-tsu-wa : May 17th, 2010 at 23:48.
 
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Old May 17th, 2010, 22:47   #9 (permalink)
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I come here for a browse after months away, and I find this beautiful conversation going on!

Thank you Both, very much!!!

 
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Old May 18th, 2010, 12:29   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for your empathy Ta-tsu-wa, you have a point!

Its the drama of my own expectations.

When i wrote this sentence, i recognized that i cut myself of from the frustrating feeling. My mind knows its garbage, so why should i feel frustrated? But the feelings already there, and so i get stuck within it.

It seems the same with my expectations. My mind tells me exactly to know what im reading about and paints me this large and believable picture of what i want to see, and so cuts my perception of off the real thing.

I have no answer to this yet, but maybe alone the realization is a beginning, to learn to lay my mind aside and just be.

Oh, and btw: hi chris! Hope you´re doing well?

Last edited by Panthau : May 18th, 2010 at 13:02.
 
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