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Old March 9th, 2010, 09:13   #1 (permalink)
Panthau (Offline)
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Default A course in miracles

Hi,

I wanted to get some ideas about how Eckhart Tolle and "A Course In Miracles" are coherence. As ive been reading about "ACIM", its like its the total opposit from what ET teaches. He says, god is in everything, like flowers... and if one really "sees" the flower, he sees the true nature of it.

The ACIM tells the opposite, that this universe has nothing to do with "god" (or however you call it) and that everything here is necessarily braking apart some day in our universe and that in fact theres no real beauty. It also says that we are primarily here to learn our lessons and "waking up" isnt that important as many teachers say. Also the "here and now" is not the real essence, but that it may help short-termed. It also seems like as if theres a hierarchy, in the steps on the way to god.

Im a bit confused right now, what do you think about it?

Thanks
Pan
 
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Old March 9th, 2010, 20:54   #2 (permalink)
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I don't know those two teachings in detail, but the contrasts you cite are both partial truths. The world of time is certainly unsteady, all things that are made of parts eventually fall apart. This does not mean that the timeless is not in time. Eternity, infinity, God, the Tao that can not be spoken - it is present everywhere and in a myriad of forms. There is no conflict in that. Only when we think time has permanence is there a conflict, but the very measurement of time is change. If the world was not constantly breaking apart and combining in new forms like in a child's kaleidoscope, we would not know that time even existed. And of course there is a hierarchy in the sense that we can and hopefully will continue to grow all our lives, and some sparks have come before us and some come after us. But that does not mean that we can not be at rest while we grow.

People make a lot of unnecessary conflict between different teachings of religion. I believe this is because there is material benefit in stirring up conflict - it causes your disciples to go into overdrive fueled by adrenaline.
 
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Old March 10th, 2010, 09:22   #3 (permalink)
Panthau (Offline)
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Yup, i think its all about interpreting. I just like it as clear as possible, and i just wonder why this isnt as clear as it could be, as the medium calls itself "Jesus"?!

I´ve been reading a roundup about the course, and its just weird with all the christian terms, but one can interpret the course similar to E.Tolle´s teachings. Im asking, because the course is worldwide very well known and has many followers, so i pay more attention to it, as to something no one knows.

Anyway, at the end of this roundup, the author tries to explain the scene where Jesus got angry in this temple where people bought and sold things. But who cares about this scene? Who cares about Jesus? Ok, he might found the truth, but how does this have importance for us, where there are much clearer spiritual teachers living on earth right now? And if Jesus was awake, he had absolutly no need to get heared through violence.

That was the point where i threw it away and it was kind of an relief!

So maybe ACIM is a good way for some people, obviously for christians that want to lay out the old teachings in a new way, but i stay with Mr.Tolle and Mooji, my intuition, and of course you guys
 
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Old March 11th, 2010, 22:51   #4 (permalink)
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Default Your truth

I have had similar quandaries myself quite often. In my experience is that there is no "RIGHT" answer. Whatever feels right to you is your truth. Really look inside and pay attention to how you feel when approaching these conflicting ideas. You will feel at ease and be able to breathe freely when presented with your truth.
Namaste
Michelle
 
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Old March 12th, 2010, 08:50   #5 (permalink)
Panthau (Offline)
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Thats what the course says, theres no subjective truth. It also says that the creation of the universe has nothing to do with god (its from the ego), still the ego is part from the self, which is part from god... this doesnt make sense somehow...

So saying god is in everything is true and untrue at the same time.
 
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Old March 12th, 2010, 14:24   #6 (permalink)
Edwin (Offline)
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Originally Posted by Panthau View Post
Thats what the course says, theres no subjective truth. It also says that the creation of the universe has nothing to do with god (its from the ego), still the ego is part from the self, which is part from god... this doesnt make sense somehow...

So saying god is in everything is true and untrue at the same time.
Ah, there you are on to something.
Well done Pan !

Eckhart Tolle's teaching doesn't exactly say that everything is a manifestation of God. There is a very subtile difference.
You see, if ET were to say that a flower is a manifestation of God, he would be teaching a belief system called Pantheism ( no really, not a pun ).
However Eckhart doesn't teach a belief system. He teaches ways to realise the truth, just like he did himself.

Even tho the design of everything around us has intelligence to it, it is not designed by an active thinking God-person on a cloud somewhere.

He says, god is in everything, like flowers... and if one really "sees" the flower, he sees the true nature of it.
You quote him accurately. Think of God, or the Universe, or whatever description you feel comfortable with, as the space in which everything appears.
Just like sound can only manifest itself in silence.
Once you will understand that the flower, and the earth in which it grows, the air around it, the heat of the Sun, all these factors appear in Space, or God ( again, choose name you like best ), you understand that everything is the same one God.
The manifestations are endless, and sometimes beautiful to the human eye, and sometimes terrible to the human eye ( read human judgement, or egoic judgement ), but in the end it doesn't matter, as it all appears in One. If there is no difference in the flower and the stone next to it, as both appear in the same space, why can there be a difference between your body and mine. Both your body and my body appear in consciousness-awareness.

From that viewpoint, if something were to appear in the world, manifest itself, it is automatically part of God.
It manifests itself in God.
Just like you do. Or more accurate, your body/mind does.

God and Self are the same in the end. If you try to look inside and find your Self, it is impossible to see it. If you try to imagine where your self ends, that is also impossible. Self is endless. God is endless. Everything appears in yourSelf. And since it is endless, both you and me are the same Self in the end. Knowing this puts the world we live in, and our so called "personal life's" in the right perspective.

I don't know this course in miracles, but from what you write.... I'm not that pleased with their methods.

However, there may be a thousand roads towards enlightenment, they all end at the same point tho.
 
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Old March 12th, 2010, 14:59   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Edwin View Post
However, there may be a thousand roads towards enlightenment, they all end at the same point tho.
Thanks for your insight Edwin.

It is exactly this sentence that i also found in the book. Its not the course itself im reading, but something that connects to it.

I want to tell a metaphoric story from the book, which touched me and made me feel its true somehow. Its not that easy to have these christian terms everywhere, but they also say its all in the end metaphoric expect "god".

"The begin of the universe:"

God is, and God is love... and god expanded (whatever that means). This expandation is what christian call "Christ". Christ itself expanded further and in those expansions at one point (theres no time of course, its all metaphoric), there came this spark of a thought "what if..."


"What if... i would play alone?"

And the answer came in form of fear. The part of Christ (or is it the whole Christ, i dont know) who thought that, was so afraid of the answer from God, that it separated - or thought to do so - from God. The truth is, nothing ever separated, but Christ (or the part of it) felt in a deep dream, where it dreams about separation and all those feelings that come with it. God itself didnt react to that thought, otherwise he would have made it true... but God cannot create something that isnt as true as himself.

So the course in miracle says, all left to do is, connect to the higher self (they call it the holy ghost or jesus), which is your true nature and let it guide you, which means to learn forgiveness. All left to do is to forgive, because we have so much shame and blame in our subconscious because of what happend, that we cannot face it and project it outside... thats how the ego works.

Maybe my translation is not the best, but i feel theres somehow a deep truth in it.

So realising the self would be only the first step back to who we are.

Thats the reason for my last post... in this story, the "Christ" or the part of it, created our universe, and not God... God isnt responsible for it. So everything is god, but also not.. weird

Last edited by Panthau : March 12th, 2010 at 15:05.
 
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Old March 12th, 2010, 17:11   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Panthau View Post
Thanks for your insight Edwin.

It is exactly this sentence that i also found in the book. Its not the course itself im reading, but something that connects to it.
It is my own interpretation of a saying from a 5000 years old book from India.

I seriously doubt those ACIM guys would have thought up a saying like this.

As to the story: I like stories, however this doesn't touch me one bit. It is a lot of speculation, fantasies, what if's.

But if it works for you, by all means ! I myself found the Advaita Vedanta tradition, and Zen tradition as well btw, to be a lot more to the point.
 
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Old March 12th, 2010, 18:34   #9 (permalink)
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Unfortunately, a lot of religion takes what is in the bible and interprets it in it's own ways, and ACIM is not really that different, yet to give them credit, they do look at things from a bit more of a "living in the present" perspective than just your regular preacher in church who tells you that you're all sinners and will burn in hell.

As for the stories around Jesus, I wouldn't actually discredit them. A lot of the stories are actually very wise teachings about being present, learning that we are all One in the Universe etc. if you read between the lines. It's a bit more like someone was trying to use an analogy to describe the principles rather than just say it straight out.

If you were to compare the bible to other religious texts, whether that's the k'oran, Buddhist dharma, or the Vedic philosophies in things such as the Bhagavad Gita and the Upanisads, you would find a great deal of similarity between them; different characters, seemingly different stories, but all essentially illustrating the same principles of Oneness, being present, and ways of living.



Hugs

Giles
 
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Old March 12th, 2010, 19:46   #10 (permalink)
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Have to admit, i had to filter out things for me, because of its very own christian style. But after i layed down my interpretations of some terms, i really got into it. In the end its the same teachings which ET or others teach, but it goes further then this, at least theoretical.

Its way is probably ment for people that are very unconscious about their behavior in the world, as it says that one should practice forgiveness in the outer world because of projections. I tried that, but everytime i found something that i could forgive, i instantly saw that its a feeling within me. Nothing wrong with forgiving myself, isnt it?

It also says that its just a learning course for some people, not for all. And that its not a religion, nor a gospel or something else that could be adored. In the end its very clear in its message, though as it says itself, its not for everyone.

At least i felt today, as i was reading, on the edge of my realising the self inside me. Probably just an illusion :P

Oh, and btw... this is the book im talking about: Amazon.com: The Disappearance of the Universe: Straight Talk About Illusions, Past Lives, Religion, Sex, Politics, and the Miracles of Forgiveness (9781401905668): Gary R. Renard: Books

Last edited by Panthau : March 12th, 2010 at 19:59.
 
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