other forms of meditation

[brozen]

Hey all again,

I've just been thinking recently. There seems to be so many people out there who understand life and living. About our minds and our true nature. About the choices between fear and love and all that good stuff that seems to come with connection to self.

I see all these things as a great benefit and a kind of realization of true existence.

The ways people go about coming to these understandings vary greatly.
Meditation, marijuana, LSD (lots of drugs, I guess), depression?(Eckhart Tolle), strokes (illness), genetics?, logical reasoning?(philosophers). I guess what all these hold in common is that people are taken out of one way of knowing and almost drastically shoved into this new way of knowing.

So my question is, Is meditation the 'best'? Should it be done without the other ways?

Is there anything wrong with gaining insights from drugs?


I feel like meditation is good because it's 'natural'. But the word natural doesn't really seem to have a bearing on right/wrong.
Is meditation special at all? Aren't we just humble evolved beings with a consciousness? Aren't our brains just randomly special, rather than necessarily special?

I guess another question is Why do I want to consider other means, but all I can say to that is; other than curiosity, Why not?

It all seems like a different means to the same end.


ALL THOUGHTS ARE WELCOME OF COURSE!
haha

[pollyanna]

Hi Brozen,

In my experience, the essence of meditation is to cultivate a greater sense of awareness and clarity of mind. To be aware of who you are and understand the power of the mind - both how it serves you well and how it can control your reactions if you allow it to, is quite amazing. To just be quiet a little brings so many benefits you notice, not during the quiet and peaceful state of meditation, but throughout your daily life. As you let go of supressed emotions and learn not to react to situations or resist change, you can respond to and enjoy life so much more. However, even though you do this, although you have changed, you are still the same person - if you know what I mean

In my opinion again, the drugs you mention are used as an escape from awareness and reality. I don't see any comparisons, I cannot speak from experience with drugs, but I have seen a lot of suffering and paranoia because of their use. This is just my opinion, I hope it is of help and I wish you much peace and joy

[GilesC]

Originally Posted by brozen

The ways people go about coming to these understandings vary greatly.
Meditation, marijuana, LSD (lots of drugs, I guess), depression?(Eckhart Tolle), strokes (illness), genetics?, logical reasoning?(philosophers). I guess what all these hold in common is that people are taken out of one way of knowing and almost drastically shoved into this new way of knowing.

Not necessarily drastically.
A lot of people do come to some "spiritual" realisation when some major event or trauma takes place in their life, I think because it makes them question things that they've not questioned before (or the question has been shoved to the back of their minds in favour of being a sheep in society )
Myself, it's been a slow progressive thing, just starting with a gentle wanting to help myself be more healthy which led to me questioning what this "energy" thing really was that was talked about in Tai Chi classes, then over the years, my understanding of these things has grown with study and self experience and teachings from others, where the truth has become known through putting things into personal practice and the untruths discarded also when tested. There was no major event for me, no trauma, no sudden "oh my! is that what this is all about!".

So my question is, Is meditation the 'best'? Should it be done without the other ways?

Meditation is a part of the many ways. It's certainly shown itself to be effective, but I would question anyone who says it's the "best" as such judgement can only come from ego.

Is there anything wrong with gaining insights from drugs?

My personal opinion, not wrong, but only leading to untruths. Many who take drugs claim to have experienced all sorts of insights, but what are those insights? They are not truth until they have been personally tested with a non-judgemental awareness, yet the drugs can effect the mind in such a way as to give such a strength of "belief" in what is experienced, as if it were "so real", but often it is just that strong belief that gives judgement about it being a truthful insight, without it having been personally tested.

I feel like meditation is good because it's 'natural'. But the word natural doesn't really seem to have a bearing on right/wrong.
Is meditation special at all? Aren't we just humble evolved beings with a consciousness? Aren't our brains just randomly special, rather than necessarily special?

Meditation isn't a substance. It doesn't change who we truly are. The practice of meditation can vary, but the ultimate state of meditation, when reached, is just BEing who we truly are, and that is something we already have, but we cover it with the mind and ego.

I guess another question is Why do I want to consider other means, but all I can say to that is; other than curiosity, Why not?

It all seems like a different means to the same end.

Indeed, they are. I think we like to look at different methods and teachings and study different things so that we can try and train our mind (us in control of the mind rather than it controlling us) to have some sort of terminology or framework in which we can understand about BEing our true self or reaching that state of meditation (the thing we can't really put into words, but we can point at with words). I guess, having some model to frame our understanding in allows us the comfort of knowing that it's the truth, because we have tested it, (and therefore it is knowledge rather than just information) and knowing that we're not just going completely bonkers!

Hugs

Giles

[brozen]

Thanks for the responses, had some time to think them over.

As you let go of supressed emotions and learn not to react to situations or resist change, you can respond to and enjoy life so much more. However, even though you do this, although you have changed, you are still the same person - if you know what I mean

Yes, I understand that the true self can't be changed, anything that can be changed, was never really you in the first place. This has made me think, if there is a Self that is unchangeable, then what is it that makes that self the way it is?

the drugs you mention are used as an escape from awareness and reality.

I would agree with this, in that they can be used to escape from created reality. As in the reality that the mind creates. But the ultimate reality of Being can't be escaped, only covered up.
This has brought up another question; Can you experience Being from an altered awareness?

For example say we took a drug that made us see blues as reds and reds as blues.
Surely we would able to Be in what is still the ultimate reality, but with a different awareness. The same way a person who is colour blind isn't Being in the WRONG reality. It's just different.

Meditation isn't a substance. It doesn't change who we truly are. The practice of meditation can vary, but the ultimate state of meditation, when reached, is just BEing who we truly are, and that is something we already have, but we cover it with the mind and ego.

In relation to the new question; Do drugs only affect mind and ego? Would Being, while on drugs be exactly the same as Being; without drugs.

Indeed, they are. I think we like to look at different methods and teachings and study different things so that we can try and train our mind (us in control of the mind rather than it controlling us) to have some sort of terminology or framework in which we can understand about BEing our true self or reaching that state of meditation (the thing we can't really put into words, but we can point at with words). I guess, having some model to frame our understanding in allows us the comfort of knowing that it's the truth, because we have tested it, (and therefore it is knowledge rather than just information) and knowing that we're not just going completely bonkers!

Haha, it's true, a lot of the questioning is kind of necessary, while on the path to learning what Being is. I've found learning about non-duality has made me understand parts of the mind that I have experienced. Knowing what is and isn't the mind. But of course in the end once you can just Be, there is no need for that framework of knowledge.

PEace

[GilesC]

I would agree with this, in that they can be used to escape from created reality. As in the reality that the mind creates. But the ultimate reality of Being can't be escaped, only covered up.
This has brought up another question; Can you experience Being from an altered awareness?

For example say we took a drug that made us see blues as reds and reds as blues.
Surely we would able to Be in what is still the ultimate reality, but with a different awareness. The same way a person who is colour blind isn't Being in the WRONG reality. It's just different.

In relation to the new question; Do drugs only affect mind and ego? Would Being, while on drugs be exactly the same as Being; without drugs.

I think the above 3 parts all fit together as one question to be answered.

Drugs, from what I know of them, have a pysiological effect on a person, causing neural synapses to fire differently and changing perception through the senses (dumbing physical pain, changing the receptor signals from the eyes and the way these bring up memories and/or thoughts thus causing hallucinations etc.) This is all part of the mind (ego mind if you like). If you could reach a true state of BEing whilst on drugs then that would be the same as reaching the state of BEing whilst not on drugs, because you would be getting to that state of awareness that is beyond the ego mind. Hot having done any drugs myself, getting to that state whilst being on drugs I can only image would be more of an effort in initial focus than doing the same when not on drugs, though it may also be easier if your "normal" state of mind were, say, overactive and hyper. It's not about being IN the mind, it's about whether you can detach from the mind (it's still there doing it's stuff, but your awareness becomes more complete). I think that many who take drugs (I guess it depends on the drug) could easily perceive what their mind is conjuring up because of the drugs, as being a sense of great awareness and spiritual insight, when in fact it's likely more of a hightened pysiological feedback on the senses and is so "different" from "normal" that it's mis-associated as being something it's not.

If that makes sense.

Originally Posted by brozen

Yes, I understand that the true self can't be changed, anything that can be changed, was never really you in the first place. This has made me think, if there is a Self that is unchangeable, then what is it that makes that self the way it is?

Why does it have to be "made"? It's always been.

Is there a Self that is unchangeable. Yes, I am aware of it.
A small example to consider... You are aware of yourself? Yes, of course you are. And you've been aware of yourself since you were a small child as far back as you can remember. During your life, you're body has grown (in fact every cell of your physical body has died and been replaced, some of them many times), but just because your cells have died YOU did not die, you were just aware of it happening. Also, during that time, your emotions have changed many times (many times a day no doubt) coming and going, but all the time you are aware of these happening. Likewise, your memories have changed as you have experienced things, and you can recall memories through the mind, but as these memories, and indeed, your thought come and go, you are aware of this happening. The one thing that remains constant throughout is this "Awareness" that has always been there, regardless of what changes happen to your and your surrounding. That awareness has never changed. Some people use the saying "you're only as old as you feel", and there is so much truth in that, especially when you see some old age pensioner who is fighting fit and enjoying life as if they are still a child. Their awareness is still there and still completely aware as it was when they were a child, and they are in tune with that awareness more than other people who are not being aware (in the present moment) and believe they are the mind... the very mind that is playing games with them and telling them that they are the aging physical body that is weakening and changing all the time.

That awareness doesn't go away. It doesn't change. It's always been there. It really is simple to recognise this awareness in yourself. You can't see it, because you are it, but you can BE the awareness that is aware of everything it's attached to, including the body, mind, memories, thoughts etc. If you can be aware of it, you can't be it, even though we are attached to it all.

Hugs

Giles