from religion to meditation

[brozen]

is it wrong of me to try to convert religious people to a purely meditative life.

between Christianity and buddhist philosophy there seems to be almost no difference other than in buddhist philosophy you are acting for yourself and others rather than acting on behalf of jesus.

i know that christians can acheive just as many good things as a person who is practicing meditation, but i feel that it is wrong to be doing it IN FEAR of hell or so that they are allowed in heaven. or simply becuase they believe it to be the word of the lord therefore must be followed.

Should i keep mouth shut or is it okay to PREACH to religious ppl to convert to a non religious life of working for good

[Mr Monkey]

Hi Brozen,

Originally Posted by brozen

Should i keep mouth shut or is it okay to PREACH to religious ppl to convert to a non religious life of working for good

Maybe it’d be worth reflecting on things like why you feel the need to do this and why aren’t you content with just finding your own truth? Also if you flip the perspective round, how would you feel if someone told you what you were doing was wrong?

As your asking this question I get the impression you have some background doubts yourself, also it seems a little like you asking for permission to go up to people and “tell them how it is” , which I would suggest is inadvisable. Instead of running off down the street after people, why not wait for people to come up to you? People will only change when they are ready and will only see what they want to see, if people are not willing to accept the change you offer, then all you will be met with is resistence.

I’ve replied on another thread to you where something you said made me think of the Gandhi quote “Be the change you want to see in the World”, funnily enough this has brought the same quote back to my mind.



Paul

[brozen]

Hi paul,
thanks for your responses to my questions, im still yet to read the others. These level headed responses i have seen so far has made me glad to have signed up to this forum.


Haha, I had just written a big response back to you, listing all my reasons for wanting to change people from Christianity/religion to meditation but deleted it after i reread the sentence "People will only change when they are ready and will only see what they want to see"

This is too true. But i guess my concern with WANTING to change people from religious beliefs lies with the fact that religion holds an authority over people and I feel makes them feel inadequate. (speaking very generally) But from experiences with a few religious friends, they believe things like addictions they may have are temptations from the devil and only God can help them overcome it, rather than trusting in the strength that they themselves hold. Other friends have prejudice against gay people since the bible says it is a sin, despite this not being a belief they would otherwise hold.

A life that is lived for an authority or a book of rules, seems to lack understanding of the true nature of good, (something that i feel i have gained from meditation) It feels like by being religious, you may be missing out on the bigger picture. I hope that doesn't sound arrogant but it feels like its the truth.

I guess this question comes from me questioning the Buddhist way of accepting other religions and practices. since meditation i will admit i am all for accepting others religions knowing the joy they get from it as good as the joy i receive from meditation, but it's still a curious subject when considering the beliefs religions can impose...

Although, your quote from Gandhi does cover all of my venting, I just have to go out there and "out-good" the good of the religious, haha

thanks for getting me thinking.

[Boris Badenov]

If you reflect on it deeply enough you'll come to realize that all religions take you to the same inner place. Deeply religious people are meditative it's just that the outer manifestations of religions differ because of history, cultural differences, and race.

[Mr Monkey]

Hi Brozen,

Good to know you were willing to consider my questions, for me a sign of an open mind and a healthy ability to challenge your own views and perceptions .

As for you thoughts on religion, I agree and disagree but don’t really feel qualified to comment, although I’d be interested in seeing what others have to say.

Originally Posted by brozen

Although, your quote from Gandhi does cover all of my venting, I just have to go out there and "out-good" the good of the religious, haha

thanks for getting me thinking.

I think you may have hit slightly off target on what I was getting at. I wasn’t trying to suggest that need to out point/’good’ anyone. I think even if you tried that, as ‘good’ is subjective you’d only be pushing what you perceive as ‘good’ which can lead to difficulty, ie someone can have an opposite view to you and consider it the ‘good’ point of view. But in that case you're both 'right' , so then you must prove that what you think is right IS right, but the other person thinks this too, so the escalation starts between you both of needing to prove your ‘right’/'good' until some fur ends up flying about , which is a bit of a downer .

So just to clarify my original point, I was just trying to highlight that if you just follow your own path, focus on yourself rather than others, then you may get to a point where you radiant naturally a presence that people are drawn to and perhaps want to learn from. That way you don’t have to tell anyone they are wrong at any point in time, you can let them be as they are. But perhaps at some time they’ll see something in you they like and want to know more and which point you can start to converse as they will be open to it

Cheers, Paul

[brozen]

its true Boris, i feel like in my meditations i do experience what u are talking about, but i guess i struggle when it comes to returning to my day to day life. i am happy that people have their own religions and that they can get a positive experience from them. but when through that same religion they develop views against gays etc, their positive experience starts to appear perverted.

I guess maybe my problem is I have my own view of whats good and right. My expectations are that a religion should be based purely on love, and reject any ideas that are related to hate, so as the cater for all human life, rather than those that fit the criteria (if it is even possible)

and i guess that brings me to Mr Monkeys point. i think i may have come across as a bit of a zealot for meditation haha. my style of talk is hard to interpret in text, i tend to over express myself, which makes more sense when you hear my inflections etc.
but ye when i said

"out-good" the good of the religious, haha

i meant exactly as you described "get to a point where you radiant naturally a presence that people are drawn to and perhaps want to learn from" which goes nicely with the point you said before that people will only be willing to change when they are ready.

the most effective change is brought about by the self, with as little external resistance as possible

thanks guys

[Boris Badenov]

The best way that I've found to deal with the irritation (as I call it) that you refer to (the annoyance to intolerant religion), is to simply do what you can where you are at the moment. Make yourself of service (or helpful) to others in your daily activities. That is very helpful to me. You're not going to solve hunger in Africa but you can help somebody that you interact with on a day to day basis.

[Karmoh]

Originally Posted by brozen

is it wrong of me to try to convert religious people to a purely meditative life.

between Christianity and buddhist philosophy there seems to be almost no difference other than in buddhist philosophy you are acting for yourself and others rather than acting on behalf of jesus.

i know that christians can acheive just as many good things as a person who is practicing meditation, but i feel that it is wrong to be doing it IN FEAR of hell or so that they are allowed in heaven. or simply becuase they believe it to be the word of the lord therefore must be followed.

Should i keep mouth shut or is it okay to PREACH to religious ppl to convert to a non religious life of working for good

Welcome Brozen,

When we are ready to begin looking into our present experience in a deep and specific way, we are ready to see why it is that we suffer, why we seek, and why human life contains so much conflict, especially centred on religion. Try not to be caught in a cycle of thought; although you are stuck in what I refer to as cyclic good.

You are searching and as you find answers to your search, you wish to pass them on. You have realised in a subtle way through beginning meditation& Buddhism because it resonates with you on a level deeper than the mind, this is the peace within you that we know as the present, but that seems somehow buried under the noise of life, personal drama, a friend’s drama and the constant seeking towards future fulfilment.

As Paul and Boris point out.......First look for the reason you need to explain you new found freedom to others!

I recently had a talk with a young lady who was devout Catholic, we were sitting at a neighbour’s house chatting after a traumatic experience when she nudged me and asked in a hushed voice why God would do such a thing. She was in crisis of faith, I could of easily took the opportunity to explaining “my thoughts” on non-duality, meditation and how it would help her, but that was not what she was asking... I had to place myself in her space and find her crisis of faith for her. I asked if she believed in God through her faith or through her heart. If she stopped thoughts for a moment and listened to her heart would she understand God?
I explained that God is unconditional love, you cannot love God through thought, and you can only trust your heart (or true self) and its true and undefinable love. God in her thoughts had allowed this experience to happen; she was blaming her religion through thought. But God in her heart (true faith) was unconditional love and these things happened because absolute love allows everything to be as it is....
......She is still a devout Catholic.....

Peace

[MetaCognition]

Originally Posted by Boris Badenov

If you reflect on it deeply enough you'll come to realize that all religions take you to the same inner place. Deeply religious people are meditative it's just that the outer manifestations of religions differ because of history, cultural differences, and race.

This. Dont worry so much about others, everyones path is their own and we all find comforts and attach to certain ideas (or the idea of lacking ideas as is common on this site) Just find what works for you and others will either follow or they wont, either way, it shouldnt deeply affect your own quest for faith and understanding.

[brozen]

Thanks for all your responses so far.

To finally address

the reason you need to explain your new found freedom to others!

I think I was being too specific when I related my concern only to people of religion, and this may seem to be going off topic to the original post, but it stems from the reason I asked the question in the first place.

[I keep writing big posts only to realize that quotes like "Be the Change you want to see in the world" pretty much respond to my concerns, so after many draft posts this is the ideas I am left with]

So it really leaves me with only one more question, and the reason I asked this question in the first place.

While I spend my life being the change I want to see in the world, and hopefully spreading as much good as I can.

How does one 'cope' with the knowledge that not everyone out there will respond to your change, and that those same people may never find a path to contentment in their own life journeys.

It leaves me thinking that maybe if I get out there and do all that I can maybe those people will have a better chance. Perhaps in the same way it is a Christians goal to spread the word of Jesus to as many people as they can.

Or more succinctly, How do you deal with the suffering of others, and being content that the amount of good you have done is enough?

I feel like Karmoh has already addressed this

to see why it is that we suffer, why we seek, and why human life contains so much conflict

But i'm not there yet!