potential problems?

[GilesC]

Perhaps a better way to look at it is, rather than try and observer the thoughts, simply be aware of them. If you try and observe them, you are attaching yourself to them. If you are just aware of them, the true Self (observer) will naturally observe them without attachment.

Hugs

Giles

[Edwin]

Originally Posted by chris-da-fur

It's like, I will either be thinking thoughts, as in focused on them or identifying with them, continuing their existence by focusing on them, or I snap out of the thought and when I do that it instantly disappears.

....

It's like I can't identify with the observing presence and have thoughts going through my head at the same time, so depending on how alert and present I am I'm either resting in quiet not really working on anything, or dealing with thoughts that very easily suck me into them.

What is the speed of a thought ? When observing a thought, it comes up, and immediately disappears. If we identify with it, we think we hang on to the thought. But a thought is not like an ornament that you can place on a shelf. You can be conciously aware that you just had a thought, and what it was about, but the thought itself has allready left.
When we become "immersed in thoughts" we are basically allowing one thought to follow the next thought, allowing the one after that...etc.

So basically, as soon as you notice that you are on the thought train, and you realise it, you step off. And the last thought disappears. Yes, that quickly.

As a test for yourself, just observe the thought "Ok". Time it. How long does it take to come up, make itself noticed, and disappear ?
If you focus on the thought, will it be noticed again ? ( i.e. will it repeat ? )

So I guess I'm saying I can't indifferently observe thoughts as waves on the surface of my ocean, etc because they disappear when I try to observe them, so I can't get into the habit of viewing them as natural phenomena coming and going because they are always gone when I rest patiently waiting for a sign of them.

Am I doing something wrong, right, am I taking a quiet mind for granted or something? I have no idea

The general idea is that when observing thoughts indifferently, attention without intention, they will disappear naturally. It just happens a lot faster than you thought. What's the problem really ?

[Edwin]

Originally Posted by Panthau

Hehe!

One question for you guys... have you ever experienced, that you´re breathing yourself "in"? When i use this technique i found for letting go in my meditation, its like with every breath i suck myself into myself until i´ve lost any focus. After the meditation im slight dizzy... has someone ever experienced something like that or am i a bit crazy? *gg*

Thanks
Pan

Never had anything like it Pan you are a bit crazy indeed

It's just a sensation, a feeling. Let it go.

[chris-da-fur]

haha there's no problem I guess, but I was definitely going about observing them not quite right. I was waiting for them to appear, and by doing so focusing on their presence, identifying with them either in the silence they come out of or as thoughts.

I stumbled on a Mooji video that made a lot of stuff "click" together, the phrase "when the student is ready, the teacher will appear" never ceases to amaze me!

YouTube - Bliss and thoughts ______________Mooji

[harijan]

Originally Posted by Edwin;13149[QUOTE

]This is meditation allready Keep it up, you are doing great !

Thanks for the vote of confidence, I thought I was just dong the technique, but unsuccessfully.

The thoughts subsiding can be a pleasant byproduct of meditation. You have made it your goal. Making a goal for meditation is the second big no no in meditation. In case you are wondering, the first no no is putting in effort, or straining to stop thoughts.

Meditation is not about stopping thoughts. It is about losing attachment to those thoughts. If you stop believing those thoughts instantly, but simply observe them indifferently, the thoughts will slow down. Why spend energy on creating thoughts if you aren't going to act upon them, will be the brain's conclusion.

About being present in the moment: you can do that while having thoughts allready. People who have realised their true nature, or to use the common phrase, enlightened ones, don't turn into zombies because they don't think anymore.
They just know that the thoughts that come up are not about their person, because that person is also imaginary. So, thoughts that come up can be useful for their situation, and they can act upon it, or they can simply let the thought go effortlessly.

So, meditation is not about stopping thought, it is about losing your attachment to that thought.

[/quote]

Thank you Edwin, your insight has cleared this up for me now. I hope.

Of course!!!, one can't stop thoughts while one has a mind, and as humans it is just part of our nature, as compared to "lower life forms" like all the other animals and plants etc. which don't have as a developed mind.

So in summary the mind is a useful tool for being creative and organizing our daily living and making choices etc.

And meditation is not about "stopping the mind or thoughts" it is about losing attachment to the thoughts or not identifying with the thoughts.

So by using a meditation technique (in this case a mantra) we create a space or a gap between the observer and our thoughts (mind).

And the observer is who we really are (like consciousness, awareness) and the thoughts (especially thoughts about who we think we are) are the ego.

So meditation is about losing attachment with one's thoughts and one's ego.

So that's it !!! ???

Sorry for getting bogged down in semantics but I'm just trying to get a handle on it all.

First time I've used this "quote" thingy !!!

[Edwin]

Originally Posted by harijan

So by using a meditation technique (in this case a mantra) we create a space or a gap between the observer and our thoughts (mind).

And the observer is who we really are (like consciousness, awareness) and the thoughts (especially thoughts about who we think we are) are the ego.

So meditation is about losing attachment with one's thoughts and one's ego.

So that's it !!! ???

Quite simple actually isn't it ?

You got the picture perfectly