Originally Posted by eddy3042
Giles you are obviously a true gentleman and scholar and a terrifically kind-hearted person. Where I seem to attack forcefully with my words you flow like a willow in the wind and answer without 'attacking' back. I hope that the practise of meditation has half the effect on me as it has obviously had on you. I realize now that we actually seem to see eye to eye on most of these topics.
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Indeed we do, and I don't think you are attacking, rather you are seeking answers and understanding, as we all are.
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That said, it also seems pretty obvious that we actually 'meditate' (sorry - using it as a verb not an ideal state) in fundamentally different ways. Some images come to mind to show what I think the difference might be. Of course there is no one right way to practise but this fundamental difference intrigues me.
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It's fine to use it as a verb, most people know it that way and understand it is referring to the technique being used to enter the meditative state rather than being the meditative state itself. This is the way of language.
My way might be seen as climbing a mountain where there's a kind of rigorous effort (mental effort) for most or all of each 'sit' but sometimes I make it to the peak of that mountain and the object kind-of drops away and effortless awareness prevails. (That effortless awareness happens rarely by the way but much more easily with Lifeflow (I think))
The image that comes to mind for your way is not ascending with effort but allowing yourself to sink downwards (I'm picturing quicksand or swampy quagmire) into awareness with no-effort. From what you've written I'm assuming you usually are 'letting go' of the mantra fairly early into each sit? The way you actually use the mantra not really as a focus point but rather as something that kind-of naturally draws you into awareness is what I'm finding hard to comprehend. I haven't actually listened to the Discover Meditation downloads on this site yet so perhaps that will clarify this for me.
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"sink", "quicksand or swampy quagmire", these are just contrasting images to your own experience. I wouldn't necessary describe the meditation technique I most commonly do in such a way, but as a contrast to the method you desribe as your own technique, it will suffice as a illustrative way of describing my technique.
Let me recount to you a couple of things that your description has brought to mind that I have observed in my own life but hadn't really equated particularly to my "spiritual" practice until now, both relating to your analogy of climbing a mountain...
I enjoy going out walking in the countryside with my partner and our friends, often picking places to walk that we haven't been to before. On this one particular walk during summer last year, we headed to a new place and had figured out a reasonably long circular route. It was a lovely walk and the last stretch involved a long stretch (about 1.5 miles) of continuous uphill to get back to the car. Now, bearing in mind we'd already walked a good distance and our feet and legs were obviously feeling it, the others who I was walking with really got it into their minds that this last stretch was going to be a killer, and they even imposed this belief on me... at the start of it. Sure enough we all started walking up, concentrating on the hill ahead of us and how much effort it was taking to walk, but then I had a flash of insight (for want of a better way of putting it). I chose to look at the hill as thought it were level ground with simply a higher level of gravity rather than being an obstacle that was difficult to climb, and from that point on, each footfall became effortless. It was no longer a hill, no longer hard work, no longer something that was a challenge, and I continued on at a good pace all the way back to the car. When we reached the top, the others commented on how out of breath they were and how they were knackered, but queried why I wasn't. The answer was that had rid myself of the belief that the hill was a challenge requiring effort and seen it for what it truly was, a means for me to get from A to B; no more effort than any other route I could walk.
The second relates to regular walks we do with one of our neighbours each week. Again it relates to how effortlessly I choose to let the walking be. The purpose of these weekly walks is because my partner and this neighbour (and her daughter sometimes) wish to exercise regularly and keep fit, so we walk locally and it can sometimes be quite downhill and uphill. Again, I choose for the hills to be effortless and again I can walk them without getting out of breath. Even when I'm walking on the flat, it seems effortless. The neighbour has obviously noticed this in me, because she often comments "Giles, your floating again!" when she observes how I'm walking.
Things don't have to be an effort. They don't require concentration, because to concentrate on them will bring forth pre-conceived ideas of them and create effort. By simply practicing at being aware and letting that awareness come forth, we can let it trigger a choice when we need it, and that choice can be to simply let go. It sounds easy, and it can be, if you choose for it to be. If you believe it's not easy, then it's you (your pre-conceived ideas, memories, lifestle etc.) that is getting in the way and you have to first make the choice that it can be easy. Now
that can be the the bit that people find difficult.
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If you agree with this sort of image my question is - Have you always practised that way or did you start off doing something that more resembled my way?
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Well I won't lie, yes of course I started off doing it in such a way that effort was involved. The first sorts of meditations I regularly did were guided meditations, requiring focus and concentration on what was being said. Whilst sometimes I did enter a good or deep state of meditation this way, it would often require so much effort that, upon coming out of the meditation, I (and the others in the meditation group) would be saying that we felt very relaxed (and ready for bed!). It would actually take energy from us to do the meditation.
Since learning the unfocussed (mantra) meditation, and being taught that I should "invite" the mantra to come in how it chooses, rather than focus on it or make it happen, or try to hold onto it, the meditative state happens more regularly and easily and appears to be a deeper state of awareness. Then when I finish meditating this way, I come out of it and feel awake and alert, not drained of energy, but rather re-energized.
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I ask this because I think if I tried to meditate your way I'd be lost at sea so to speak.
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This is a self limiting belief. What is stopping you from letting this belief go?
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This is because in most books I’ve read it says that a base level of concentration is necessary before moving on to pure awareness practise.
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Do the books say
why such concentration is necessary? Does the practice of meditation have to be so structured that we can't access pure awareness right away? After all, pure awareness is the natural state ("our birth right" as one of my teachers like to refer to things) and it is this natural state that is covered by all the thoughts, emotions, memories etc. Of course, we can choose to take things step by step, and it's entirely up to us as individuals. I think we call it a "fear of the unknown", which prevents us from just giving it a go straight away and seeing what happens. Even then, if we give it a go, we will have fears (ideas, thoughts etc.) that creep in and may sabotage the action, for that go, but it doesn't mean we have done anything wrong, it just means we can have another go, and another... and another...
As I think I mentioned in my previous post, the only concentration that I can see is required, is the concentration to take us away from our daily routine and give us the discipline/dedication to actually choose to sit down and practice meditation.
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And it's obvious to me that I don't have that base level of concentration at all yet!
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It may be that you can't achieve that, simply because you are attempting to enter a state of awareness and you are attempting to concentrate at the same time; when the truth is that awareness and concentration are mutually exclusive. You are already finding yourself entering periodic states of awareness when you pracrtice meditation, but you also become aware at that point that you have lost the concentration and then fear (that you're not doing it right, and fear perhaps of staying in awareness) manages to attach itself and drags you out of the awareness to the comfortable concentration that you are familiar with.
Why not practice your meditation again, only this time choose to stay in the awareness and choose to let the concentration go when it goes. If any thoughts (fears) arise as the concentration goes, simply choose to let them pass too.
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But I will endeavour to learn more about the mantra method on those downloads.
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I can't recall how much detail Michael goes into on the downloads. I've have another listen myself and see...
Hugs
Giles
I too found the discussion clarifying. Thank you, Eddy and Giles.
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