Difference Between Effects of Meditation & Entrainment?

[mindsheep]

I understand how meditation and entrainment are two different things. For example, you can meditate while not doing brain entrainment, and can do brain entrainment while not meditating.

I also have read that brain entrainment (such as using lifeflow) will help you slip into a meditative state by effecting your brain waves, but entrainment does not cause meditation and does not have the same effects as meditation on its own.

This confuses me, and here's why...

Entrainment:
You're brain being at certain frequencies will send your mind into a certain state, which can be beneficial as it releases certain hormones, depending on the brainwave frequency. For example 10hz brainwave would leave you relaxed and releasing serotonin and endorphons. If you use brain entrainment sounds like Lifeflow you can send yourself into these beneficial states on demand.

In addition entrainment can cause both sides of your brain to work together and 'harmonize' (brain synchronization), which also has its own benefits, such as improving intelligence.

Meditation
Through meditation you can cause your brainwaves to enter a certain relaxed state.

You have less control over which brainwave state you go into, but when in whichever state the results will be as expected for that state. For example. you could meditate into the 10hz level, which in turn releases serotonin and endorphins.

Meditation also promote brain synchronization. So these effects\results are IDENTICAL to entrainment.

The one benefit of meditation I've heard discussed that does not occur with entrainment is that your mind begins to release negative emotions, which if you don't resist, will be freed from your mind.

However, this final benefit does not have any scientific backing to the best of my knowledge, which leaves me confused about how the results of meditation are that much different to entrainment.

Is there any scientific evidence that meditation offers ADDITIONAL benefits over entrainment.

[GilesC]

Originally Posted by mindsheep

Is there any scientific evidence that meditation offers ADDITIONAL benefits over entrainment.

I think, the moment you ask for "scientific evidence" you're stepping into a minefield.

What evidence do you want precisely from science? What would you class as a "benefit" considering different people will experience different benefits depending upon their current life situation and needs.

As for whether meditation offeres additional benefits over entrainment, I don't think you can do such a comparison. It's like comparing chicken to an apple. Each can provide different benefits, but each can also provide nutrition.

Entrainment will provide a balance in the brainwave activity that we can use during our everyday lives, whether conscious, unconscious or in a meditative state.

The practice of meditation brings us to the meditative state, and entrainment may be beneficial in reaching that state or maintaining that state due to it's effects on the brainwave activity, but meditation is possible without it. In the meditative state we can BEcome at one with our true Self, letting the thoughts and worries go and recognising something that is beyond words. This is not something you would likely experience from entrainment alone.

Each have their benefits, and each can work together as well as having some common ground in terms of benefits.

The only evidence you need is what you experience through your practice and use of these things.

Hugs

Giles

[Edwin]

Originally Posted by GilesC

As for whether meditation offeres additional benefits over entrainment, I don't think you can do such a comparison. It's like comparing chicken to an apple. Each can provide different benefits, but each can also provide nutrition.

Hugs

Giles

Agreed. Both the chicken and the apple taste good by themselves, but when you combine them, that's where magic happens:

Cooks.com - Recipe - Chicken With Slivered Apple Slices

[CharlieBrown]

Mindsheep – if I may, I think you have the same “problem” I have, which is you are attacking meditation at too much of a scientific angle. I was doing the same, given I am a mathematician, and I get confidence from numbers and proofs. However, this is something completely different: try to take a relaxed approach, just experiment and listen to your body, without looking for proofs or evidence. If it is ok for you, your body will tell you, and if it is not, it will still tell you, so no reason to be stressed. Give it a try!
Again, my two – newbie – cents.

[GilesC]

Good advice Charlie Brown.

Like yourself and Mindsheep, I'm scientifically minded and like to reason things with logic (hey, that's what you get for being a computer software developer). I do have an understanding of all these things for myself, from all my studying of quantum physics etc. (I've got some great book by Richard P Feynman and others), but attempting to put together all that understanding of the different aspects to create one unified understanding that can be put into words is another matter and not an easy one. At the end of the day, you have to step into things with a little faith and see what happens and then you can gain your own understanding from it. I personally came into the field of complementary therapy etc. (my "other" job) with the attitude of "I'll give it a go. If it works then great. If it doesn't... well, I've not lost anything". Thankfully, it worked and here I am, years down the line, still avidly persuing this path.



Hugs

Giles

[seatrend8899]

Hi mindsheep, (love the name!!!!!!)

I, too, am of the scientific guild. For the first levels of LifeFlow I used an ikea chair that supports the neck. With the comfort level plus a deficit of night sleep I tended to fail asleep during sections of the 40 minute tracks. I then switched to the bed use as the household noise levels dictated that action. Yet, of course the "failing asleep" had a higher frequency.
My question is not one that would require expensive study aspects with control groups of people over many years but is of a simple measurement nature. This question has been with me since the first time I viewed the PM website.
If entrainment does "lock step" the brain into a frequency then what happens when we fall asleep? If the sleep state does comprise of many naturally occurring brainwave frequencies that cycle through what would we observe via an EEG in the "LifeFlow while asleep" mode? Could it be that there is a "natural overide" where the sleep cycle brainwaves start yet there is an observed constant "medium strength" level of the entrained frequency observed throughout the session?

Really, really wondering about this................


thanks for any insight folks...


shine on

jim

[CharlieBrown]

Originally Posted by seatrend8899

This question has been with me since the first time I viewed the PM website.
If entrainment does "lock step" the brain into a frequency then what happens when we fall asleep?

I would be very - very - surprised if something like this could happen. Once the stimula is over, I am positive that the brain will do the job it has been designed for and revert back to its regular sleep patterns; I don't see how it can be "locked" into the state created by the entrainment, once the entrainment input itself is over.

[seatrend8899]

Originally Posted by CharlieBrown

I would be very - very - surprised if something like this could happen. Once the stimula is over, I am positive that the brain will do the job it has been designed for and revert back to its regular sleep patterns; I don't see how it can be "locked" into the state created by the entrainment, once the entrainment input itself is over.

Hi CB,
My whole post refers to measuring the brainwave action via EEG while the track is being played.


shine on

jim

[CharlieBrown]

Originally Posted by seatrend8899

Hi CB,
My whole post refers to measuring the brainwave action via EEG while the track is being played.

I missed that, apologies, my fault!

[Edwin]

If entrainment would be that powerful, what use would meditation be ?

Your statement is based on the assumption that entrainment "snaps" you into the right brainwave state as if it has an "on/off switch".
Click!, and there it is ( wouldn't that be something tho ) !

If you want scientific proof, first you have to rid yourself of any assumption or expectation, as the results of the investigation may be coloured, or even simply wrong because you based it on an assumption.

As pleasurable as a good discussion is, Project Meditation suggests you meditate with LifeFlow for best results.
Even Project Meditation is convinced that LifeFlow works best as a meditation aid. With the exception of creative flow and optimal learning of course, but usually these are listened to when ingaged in activities that are a lot like meditation.

With PM meditation comes first, LifeFlow second.
With your assumption, LifeFlow/entrainment comes first, meditation second.

Is there any scientific evidence that meditation offers ADDITIONAL benefits over entrainment.

should actually be the other way around:

Is there any scientific evidence that entrainment offers ADDITIONAL benefits over meditation.

See what I mean ?