A brief moment...

[filly33]

I really love that story Keith. Thanks.

I think the best way I can explain these moments of peacefulness is with the word comfortable. It just kinda feels...right, like everything is in its right place, equilibrium. I agree that it's alright to have some sort of wanting, otherwise no one would take this journey and all of us wouldn't be having this conversation.

I think the wanting stops when you realize that you can't want what you already have. Is that a valid statement?

Does the wanting have to do with truth? (which has been a recurring theme in my life as of late) I think it's alright to want truth, but the truth is what you already are, in this moment, at this time. All you have to do is look at it...at least, that's the way I like to think of it.

I feel very strongly about this stuff, like I never have before in my entire life. Thanks all for sharing the wonderful experiences.

Mitch

[Maitreya]

Keith, I loved that essay. It really captures the essence of appreciation. But I feel slightly different.

I can't help feeling that more important than appreciation for the world is apathy toward it, renunciation of it. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't particularly believe the world is such a great place. I get that little nudging voice inside me saying, Don't worry about what the world does to you. It isn't real. I've felt that way since I was a toddler.

I would watch the stars at night and think, "I'm not supposed to be here. I don't belong here, this isn't my world, and I wanna go home." I didn't know if I considered myself as being from somewhere else, but I knew something wasn't right since I was four.

In fact, I still haven't figured out exactly why I've never been accepted in society—which is another part of it—or fit in with any group....Really the Buddhist concept is the closest I've ever come.

I do appreciate, in a sense. But, being alone and bored as often as I am, I find myself thinking about the world a lot, and trying to make sense of it. To me, the world is like a dream. I treated sleep as a blessing merely because my sleeping dreams are usually more pleasant, and that's the problem with the world.

We treat it as our friend, or as our enemy. We seek out pleasure, and fight pain. But our only freedom would lie in detaching ourselves from both of these things. When you are at war with yourself, you can never achieve peace. It seems that WANTING to be enlightened isn't bad, except it could be a fetter if you imagine it incorrectly. If you think it is something separate.

For example, I have no enemies, and (quite honestly) no friends either. I'm not actually a "dredge" of society, I just don't really....click...with anyone. People had never been terribly special to me, because though it's extremely corny, I have a compassionate love for them all, equally. I'm certainly not perfect, but I've always been quick to love and I don't consider anyone more important than another.

So Mitch, in a way I agree with your point. But such a point deserves much more observation. To me, there is no having; no possession at least. People worry about damaging something that is "mine," and I disagree with them. People ask me my reaction to someone's taking something that is mine, and I can't continue the conversation socially.

When it comes down to it, enlightenment in the Buddhist sense at least, is Awakening, being Awake—seeing the world for what it really is. It's like having a Lucid Dream, because perception of this world is just as false and biased as a dream.

I believe that only with an unbiased view of the world, free of attachments and desires and possession, can we ever hope to wake up and see the world for what it really is. I think that's why we have little "glimpses of reality" when we rid ourselves temporarily of desire, or stop caring.

If that makes sense?

[Edwin]

Maitreya,

I know what you mean, however it doesn't seem to feel right when reading it.
What I felt last monday was a deep unconditional real Love for everything in the world, good or bad was meaningless. Everything is a manifestation of this deep power, it is born in it and dissolves back into it when it's time in the material world is up.

You seem to have labeled the Universe in which you exist as "wrong" for you, and have placed yourself outside of it, or maybe I am reading it wrong, if so, sorry about that.

It feels like a big waste to turn your back to the only experience you will ever have. Your existance as a human being is not an accident or a manifestation of a random universe, meaningless in it's rise and fall. You are supposed to experience it, not push it away, or at least that is how I see it.
If you experience boredom and solitude, you are doing something wrong, that I do know. Even by yourself, by choice or whatever reason, if you are not feeling a spark of joy in everything you do, there is a lot that can be gained and, if you choose to follow that road, a promise of great things coming your way !

[Maitreya]

Oh, yes, of course! I know what you're saying. I'm sorry it came out like that.

I was off base saying not to appreciate the world, and I completely agree. What I meant wasn't that I am "lonely" and "tired of being alone"; but that I am simply alone with nothing to do—which for me is necessary.

It has always been my opinion that there is no RIGHT or WRONG. Everything that happens happens for a reason, and since my being alone results in contemplating the world, it can't be bad.

And I don't believe this is the only worldly experience we'll ever have. Despite that, I don't mean "turning our backs" on the world, because that suggests making it our enemy. The problem to me isn't appreciating the world, and loving it, but rather the problem is becoming attached to it and feeling as if you NEED to have it.

There's no need to apologize, I did not say it nearly as well as I should have.

Appreciation is part of contentment to simply exist, and appreciation in itself isn't attachment. What I mean is not that seeing beauty in things is a fetter to enlightenment. All I mean is that, from these several statements that abandoning desire gave a "glimpse of reality", caring more about pleasure than pain is.

I didn't mean to say I abandon or demonize anything. Sorry for the misunderstanding . I don't feel boredom, and I don't demonize being alone. I don't make pain my enemy, but neither do I make pleasure my friend. It isn't abandoning the world, so to speak. As was said, If we are not our bodies, or our thoughts, or our emotions...? And what, then, is the world?

Is the world our desire for it, or is the world itself? Can we not abandon our desires and hatreds (including those for pleasurable experiences versus painful ones) without abandoning the world.

Like Siddhartha Gautama said: "Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."

Sorry, too, if that came out preachy. I hope what I said is less.....opposing now.


[Edit] Oh, about labeling the Universe as "wrong for me," not at all. What I would have meant by thinking I don't belong here is not that I shouldn't be here, but that this isn't the only place I've ever been, or only life I've ever lived.

I think saying that was a childhood manifestation of my desire to return to that "source" you mentioned, where I felt I should be. I've always wanted to feel the way I do whenever I exit metta meditation, the way we feel when we're free.

For what I'm saying to be understood I guess you have to know I believe in reincarnation.

Maybe it's spiritual babble, but that's what I was saying.

[Edwin]

That is the first time that I am actually glad I misunderstood someone

good to hear !

[Edwin]

Since my last experience I have had 2 more.

One was last monday (exactly a week after the first one, go figure) and the next one the next day.

The one on monday was more intense than the first one, and lasted longer ( from dinner to bed-time ) and the one next day was more a lasting yet less strong feeling from monday evening. At the end of tuesday it was almost gone, but I now can, for short moments, just by focussing on the feeling of my body, bring similar experiences back. They don't last as I still allow thought to take over, but it is getting easyer with every attempt.

About that, the strange thing is that I have a new understanding of "living in the Now".
I thought it was a matter of focus, of constantly attempting to keep up with time. This took a lot of energy.

I now feel that it is more the absence of "not-living-in-the-now" that is important instead of constantly keeping the focus on the now. Or maybe the absence of thought instead of "not-living-in-the-now", but before that too took effort. I strained to keep the mind quiet, but now the absence of thought seems to be a byproduct that happens naturally whenever I focus on the body/breath.
Everything clicks with that first moment of "enbrightenment" as Darren likes to call it all that took lots of effort before now comes naturally.

I hope I am making sense... I feel silly writing this down.

[Bhavya]

Edwin I'm so happy for you, making these spiritual strides forward!
When you say, I now feel that it is more the absence of "not-living-in-the-now" that is important instead of constantly keeping the focus on the now., what do you mean? Is it that you're less caught in the phenomena of now - whatever is happening in the moment - and just being the witness (as some have mentioned before)? Or is it something else?

I find that I can get very aware of what's happening from moment to moment but it goes deeper when I turn awareness to itself so that the thoughts drop away, along with the body... but I'm thinking that's not what you're describing. And also you said you're focusing on the breath and body field., so maybe that doesn't compute!

Anyway, I'm excited for you. It makes me think of how life conspires to make us reach pure consciousness. If we didn't have our financial worries, relationship troubles, sufferings from losses, we'd all be lying on a beach somewhere with our families, playing volleyball and drinking long cool drinks. And then perhaps we'd never have enough motivation to put in maximum effort and arrive at pure seeing!

Mind you, with temperatures today at -25C the beach idea sounds pretty enticing Volleyball anyone?

Wishing you the best!
Bhavya

As an aside, I was reading your conversation with Darren on the LOA and then went to UTube to a radio interview with Gregg Bradden on the Divine Matrix. (Many parts) What's relevant is Gregg's scientific explanation of why the LOA works...not that he's specifically talking about the LOA as such. Scientists have discovered an intelligent field of energy that bathes all of creation. Some call it the Field, he calls it the Divine Matrix, and it's fascinating, how it all ties together ... how science is finally catching up with the yogis.

May all our divinely inspired dreams come true

[Edwin]

Originally Posted by Bhavya

Edwin I'm so happy for you, making these spiritual strides forward!
When you say, I now feel that it is more the absence of "not-living-in-the-now" that is important instead of constantly keeping the focus on the now., what do you mean? Is it that you're less caught in the phenomena of now - whatever is happening in the moment - and just being the witness (as some have mentioned before)? Or is it something else?

Yes, you understand me perfectly actually ! It's just that ! Staying in the Now happens effortlessly now for me because of that... and yet, as you say, there is something more to it. But I just can't describe what It's exactly that which I tried to figure out with my mind, and failed to understand because of that, but I can't describe now that it's there. Being the witness points towards it, but "just being" or "isness" as Tolle describes it does the same, it points towards it, but isn't enough to describe the increadible fullness of the experience.

It's kind of like the description of a "hole". In science, a "hole" doesn't exist. A hole is not solid matter, so it doesn't exist to them.
Yet, our minds have no trouble with naming something that doesn't exist.
The best way to describe a hole would be "nothing with something around it"
In much the same way, we labeled it "enlightenment" or "enbrightenment", but we can't fully describe what the [censored] it actually is.

I find that I can get very aware of what's happening from moment to moment but it goes deeper when I turn awareness to itself so that the thoughts drop away, along with the body... but I'm thinking that's not what you're describing. And also you said you're focusing on the breath and body field., so maybe that doesn't compute!

That's the whole problem, it can't be explained logically. Focusing on the body/breath is not the goal, simply "my doorway into". It might be something entirely else for you that is the trigger to the same experience, and the experience itself might be different for you too. I do know somehow that I am just brushing it, that this can go infinately deeper.

Anyway, I'm excited for you. It makes me think of how life conspires to make us reach pure consciousness. If you didn't have your financial worries, if you weren't working with the LOA so much...if you were rich and had everything you needed without worries, maybe you'd be lying on a beach somewhere with your family, playing volleyball and you'd never have had these experiences!

Isn't life funny sometimes ?

That doesn't change the fact that the life you describe sounds really

Mind you, with temperatures today at -25C the beach idea sounds pretty enticing Volleyball anyone?

Wishing you the best!
Bhavya

As an aside, I was reading your conversation with Darren on the LOA and then went to UTube to a radio interview with Gregg Bradden on the Divine Matrix. (Many parts) What's relevant is Gregg's scientific explanation of why the LOA works...not that he's specifically talking about the LOA as such. Some call it the Field, he calls it the Divine Matrix, but I got pretty excited by how it all ties in together and how science is finally catching up with the yogis.

May all our divinely inspired dreams come true

Thanks for your pointer and wishes, I wish you the very same. I wish everybody could feel this, wouldn't that be wonderfull ?

[Edwin]

I am now starting to realise what Zen means with "The Stink of Zen".

Reading back my last post, it is very easy to think that these experiences have "enlightened" me.
I myself have felt less burdened ( i.e. "lighter" ) for about a week.
I was really keen on my progress, and thought that I was almost there.

When reading this back, the extreme number of "I's" should have warned me.

In Zen "the stink of Zen" refers to people who have experienced short moments of enlightenment, or Satori, or "lifting of the veil".
When these moments are not deep enough, the ego doesn't cease to exist. It becomes dorment, only to show it's face again when the memory of the moment recides. These people will describe themselves too soon and early as "masters" or "guru's" and should be the ones to avoid when seeking guidance with a master.

As you can see, I have read quite a lot about it the last couple of days.
This is what happened to me. I thought of myself as "there" yet.
And now I feel homesick to the moments I experienced more than a week ago. And that is exactly the feeling that is keeping me from the next moment in my opinion.

The total elimination of ego is oftan described as "death before you die" in Zen, and in a way, that is exactly it, it doesn't exist anymore afterwords.
My ego is still alive, and kicking I might add

Back to meditation again ( or back to the drawing board ).

[filly33]

I'm glad to see that your really moving forward in your progress. It's always a weird feeling when you realize something important about yourself or that you've been doing something wrong. I'm glad your sharing this stuff because it's important to keep it in mind as I go further in my progress and closer to where you are now. As long as I remember the impermanence of everything, I'll be okay.

Here is a poem I wrote that was inspired by this thread:

The Persistence of Insanity

Nothing is falling,
there is no movement, no time.
We’re all just stuck in this persistent insanity,
grasping at something, anything,
that isn’t now.

I’ve decided to be a more truthful person.
Not to gain respect from anyone else.
Not to die as a legend or a saint or a wise person.
Not so I see myself placed higher in the eyes of my fellow man,
but to finally glide safely into that black abyss
and find myself flying in interstellar space,
where no man can be real
and where nothing resides.

But I ask myself, how can nothing reside?
Is there a place, deep down,
where there is a pure and untouchable essence,
that has no possessions, no thoughts, no feelings?
An entity that is not real
yet allows the space for everything to be?

Awareness.

I want to see it,
that is my persistence.
The same tick tock in my head that tells time
wants to see something to know its real,
it has too,
so it can say “I have this” or “I want that”,
but never really be fulfilled if and when
that day decides to fall onto my lap.

So I’ve decided to be more truthful.
To stop the rebound of lies that enter the abyss
and get thrown back at me.
To stop running away from nothing
and find the courage to be the I that is me.
To finally turn around and take that plunge into darkness,
cause hey,


life is just too boring not to try.


Mitch