MP3 tracks vs CDs

[bvp663]

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forum and have been trying out the LifeFlow demo track over the last 2 days. So far, I'm pretty impressed based on my usage of various different binaurals over the last 4 years (Brainwave generator, Monroe Institute, Dr. Jeffrey Thompson, etc..)

I've been thinking about taking the plunge and and making a purchase of the LifeFlow program, however I was wondering if there has been any serious discussion on purchasing CDs over the MP3s. I've found a few threads that have mentioned this but there was never much of a consensus or conclusion. You read a lot about how binaural beats supposedly becomes less effective when compressed to mp3. This compression it would seem becomes more of an issue with binaural beats whose effects are based off of actual frequencies that you need to be hearing, whereas with music a few chopped of frequencies won't necessarily diminish your appreciation of the song.

Any thoughts on this?
Thanks and I'm excited to be a part of this community!

[mwjames]

I have a thought to add: My understanding is if you do compress content containing binaural beats to a lossy format like MP3, then you should explicitly encode using "stereo" mode rather than the default "joint stereo." Joint stereo merges stereo content in some cases, which would theoretically whack the effectiveness of binaural beat content.

All LifeFlow tracks I've received so far are encoded using joint stereo, however. Maybe Michael has tested and found that joint-stereo encoding makes no meaningful difference in the case of LifeFlow tracks. But since takes no extra time or effort to encode at full stereo, and the resulting MP3 filesize increase is minimal, I think there's no downside to doing it.

Better still, I'd instantly be an even more enthusiastic customer if lossless encodings of the LifeFlow tracks (say, FLAC) were made available. Lossless encoding not only provides potentially higher quality sound, it also bypasses the joint stereo issue altogether because it's, well, lossless.

Can lossless downloads be made a delivery option along with MP3 downloads and physical CDs? Wouldn't that extra option be a useful selling point? :-)

[Edwin]

I have no personal audio experiance, but what you are looking for in these forums are comments made by forum user Raven, who has made some monsterposts on the MP3 topic ( monsterposts are kind of his trademark )

If you are still worried about the mp3 files, I know that it is also possible to order the CD's with Project Meditation.
Bonus is that the CD-tracks last for an hour where the mp3 files last 40 minutes.

Hope it helps

[Bhavya]

Originally Posted by mwjames

I have a thought to add: My understanding is if you do compress content containing binaural beats to a lossy format like MP3, then you should explicitly encode using "stereo" mode rather than the default "joint stereo." Joint stereo merges stereo content in some cases, which would theoretically whack the effectiveness of binaural beat content.

All LifeFlow tracks I've received so far are encoded using joint stereo, however. Maybe Michael has tested and found that joint-stereo encoding makes no meaningful difference in the case of LifeFlow tracks. But since takes no extra time or effort to encode at full stereo, and the resulting MP3 filesize increase is minimal, I think there's no downside to doing it.

Better still, I'd instantly be an even more enthusiastic customer if lossless encodings of the LifeFlow tracks (say, FLAC) were made available. Lossless encoding not only provides potentially higher quality sound, it also bypasses the joint stereo issue altogether because it's, well, lossless.

Can lossless downloads be made a delivery option along with MP3 downloads and physical CDs? Wouldn't that extra option be a useful selling point? :-)

I'm a bit non-technical but I would love to know the answer cuz I'm using MP3s as well.

[bvp663]

I agree that a FLAC option offered for the downloadable Lifeflow tracks would be a fantastic idea! FLAC offers full quality but with more manageable sizes that I believe the server should be able to handle. If not you could always go with some sort of private password-protected torrent option maybe? Anyways, I definitely second this request for a lossless download option.

My research since my original questions has led me to the same conclusion as mwjames - That stereo mode rather than joint stereo is a better option, although I believer there was some disagreement on this in the hydrogenaudio forums. As far as bitrate, there are differing opinions that I will post below. However it seems that most audiophiles agree that even tones outside of our hearing range shape how we hear music. Perhaps the vibrations effect the other sounds as it travels towards your ear (assuming your speakers/headphones can play back those tones). I'm not sure. Also, CBR (constant bit rate) seems preferred to VBR (variable bit rate). Although I don't see why a high quality vbr encoder (lame3.98) wouldn't do a good job maintaining the integrity of the binaural beat with a high setting (-V0). Especially since VBR would recognize any high/low frequencies and keep them if necessary rather than CBR just chopping straight across the top or bottom. Anyways, "lossyness" seems like it'd be an important issue with something like binaural beats.

Not a scientific test by any means, but I have tried another binaural track in mp3 format and CD format and the CD one did seem more effective during my meditation. This was a totally subjective non-controlled study and I don't remember at what quality the mp3 was, so this is probably worthless but I thought I'd mention it. Maybe I was just having a good meditation day.

RESEARCH
(Below are quick summaries of what other companies/sites have said regarding MP3 compression. I have left out the names of the companies as well as the links to the pages where these summaries were taken from as per the rules of the board regarding other binaural companies. I have saved the links and will make them available to anyone who wants to do more in-depth reading. Just PM me.

1. MP3 compression works by removing high-frequency components from the sound. Since binaural beats are created in the brain by the differences between 2 audible beats, mp3 compression has no degrading effect on output as long as compression is applied to both left and right channels independently.

2. A little beat of a leak from one channel into the other doesn't hurt, since 100% stereo-separation isn't necessary.

3. "After extensive talks and testing with my sound engineer we have discovered that mp3 compression can affect the binaural beats. IF the creator uses too much compression or does not encode the channels independently it will affect the audio."
"After significant research we know that we can compress the mp3 while encoding the channels seperately and still have the binaural affect but this is only possible due to having the best professional software which allows this."

Best professional software? Pretty sure all you need is the latest version of LAME mp3 encoder and know how to type in the desired settings.

4. "We don't recommend converting the audio tracks to MP3 format because the compression process can interfere with the brainwave technology on the CDs, but converting to an uncompressed WAV or AIFF is perfectly fine."

Because most of the binaural frequencies on the CDs are located in the highest and lowest ends of the spectrum, and because the precise combination of frequencies play such an important role in the effectiveness of the CDs, any clipping that occurs in those ranges can reduce the overall effectiveness. The missing data isn't as noticeable t the listener, but any missing data can cause noticeable differences in the effects.

5. (Via an e-mail from someone at one of the companies). "Our producer says that constant bit rate is preferred and 192kbps is fine."

6. It helps to avoid joint stereo.

7. "You may get an mp3 using this method, but the dose won't be effective. When you create an mp3, the file is compressed and it loses the separate binaural tones... the dose will be useless."

Hydrogen Audio Forums:
Audio nerd talk regarding binaurals. Although the references are mixed with binaural recordings (music) and binaural beats (brain entrainment).

I'm wondering if LifeFlow's addition of the isochronic tones has a role to play in any of this as far as using compression/bit rates.


So this is all I've dug up from google. Sorry for the long post!

[pollyanna]

Hi there,
if it's any use to you I have used LifeFlow with mp3, C.D.'s and ipod. I find all of them work equally well and have and continue to experience amazing results. I am not technically minded so I have copied a piece from Raven who is. Hope this helps you:-

I think I can answer your question. With your familiarity with audio work you're probably aware that any mp3 compression reduces both the top end and lower end of the frequency spectrum of a sound. It's not like compression in Zip format. In mp3 you're not eliminating blank spaces, you're trimming off the top and bottom ends of the sound spectrum.

Presuming that Michael's originals for LifeFlow were .wav formatted files, and are first generation mp3 compressions to 192kbps mp3 directly from the original .wav, loss of audio would be negligible. Like you, I can generally pick out compressions just by listening. I have both the downloaded versions of LifeFlow as well as the originals on CD and can verify that to the ear of a non-professional there will be little or no discernible difference between the versions. In particular, when I ran my tests on the wave intensity of the actual entrainment waves buried in the tracks I could find no differences at all, either by ear or on the spectrograph.

The entrainment waves would appear to be too far from either the top or bottom end of the audio spectrum to be affected by mp3 compression as little as 192kbps. I suspect Michael could probably have gone down as low as 160kbps and still had no degradation. At 128kbps...I think we might have seen some loss. Probably not a lot, but some.

But since my ear has been so acutely sensitized, like yours, I had to have both the CD version as well as the downloaded set. That's just me being anal, though. In reality I'm sure it makes no difference at all.

Having used the whole LifeFlow series and having beneffited in so many ways, I realize it is easy for me to feel this confident, however I have seen so many wonderful success stories from people who have used only the download method. Also, I had invested a great deal of money and time on other programmes in the past which were of little or no help to me. When I was first introduced to Michael and Project Meditation I was hugely impressed with not only LifeFlow but also his free course Discover Meditation. I wish you much happiness and joy on your journey of self discovery

[Edwin]

Where is Raven ?

I miss that audiophile bird.
Ever since he got bullied by someone he has gone and haven't seen him since

I really hope he comes back, I absolutely positively loved his HUUUGE explenations !

[Edward G.]

Dear all,
Downloading, copying, burning music files will all ways mean loss of quality.
If you have a good audio system, and you want to play Lifeflow on it, it is better to buy the cd's.
Burned cd's will sound "Flatt" as a quarter. That is my experience with downloaded, burned cd's. Yak! How awful! With Lifeflow it will not be any different.
You can all ways copy the cd's on an mp3 player if necessary. Which, again is better than downloading. IMHO
Welcome and much happiness!
Gassho Edward

[bvp663]

I have been using LifeFlow 10 over the past few days and have found it very effective, moreso than many of my other binaural mp3s. Like Raven I can get anal about these things since I do have experience in recording, although I don't do much in that field anymore. Anyways, for the meantime I am pretty satisfied with the mp3 version of Lifeflow, and you can beat the prices compared to the CDs!

[Edward G.]

I had a very hansom discount on the cd's! Thanks Michael!
However, I am discrete and shan't mention the price here....
And it sounds great over my good old fashion AR10 PI speakers!
It is all about the base...
Enjoy!
Gassho Edward
Ps I prefer vinyl over cd when it comes down to music, Lifeflow on vinyl
is a bit too much to ask for, though..