Hard to reconcile

[GilesC]

Ditto what Edwin says.

Define what God means to you and then it may be easier to answer using your terms, and perhaps also give an answer in our own terms.



Hugs

Giles

[sliccy]

I apologize for being a little unclear in my question. I figured this would happen, I should have not used that example to get to the bottom of my question.

I will try to use a different approach at asking the question again.

It just seems to me that the Law of Attraction is lacking logic in a way. It seems to me as if you almost kind of have to "trick" it into doing what you want it to do, or else it might trick you into what you don't want. Or at least it seems to me at least.

For example: someone has a thought "I don't want to be sick", to the Law of Attraction (from what I have gathered so far) you would be attracting sickness regardless. Instead your thought should be "I want good health", while I do see how this works. I can't see why the first thought "I don't want to be sick" couldn't not be valid as well.

The answer to what do I believe God is, or how I view it. I frankly don't know, I really don't. I suppose I am open to anything. Most theologies imply that God is everything, so if anything this pattern in recent religion is hinting me that God could be "believed" in many different ways. But really, I don't know....

I hope that made more sense, thanks for reading.


-Andy

[Still Waters]

Originally Posted by sliccy

I apologize for being a little unclear in my question. I figured this would happen, I should have not used that example to get to the bottom of my question.

I will try to use a different approach at asking the question again.

It just seems to me that the Law of Attraction is lacking logic in a way. It seems to me as if you almost kind of have to "trick" it into doing what you want it to do, or else it might trick you into what you don't want. Or at least it seems to me at least.

For example: someone has a thought "I don't want to be sick", to the Law of Attraction (from what I have gathered so far) you would be attracting sickness regardless. Instead your thought should be "I want good health", while I do see how this works. I can't see why the first thought "I don't want to be sick" couldn't not be valid as well.

The answer to what do I believe God is, or how I view it. I frankly don't know, I really don't. I suppose I am open to anything. Most theologies imply that God is everything, so if anything this pattern in recent religion is hinting me that God could be "believed" in many different ways. But really, I don't know....

I hope that made more sense, thanks for reading.


-Andy

Taking your statement "I dont want to be sick"

The subconsious mind does not work on the sentence or on language at all.

Rather it works on pictures or images, which are created by what you are thinking about. Therefore if your affirmation is "I dont want to be sick" - The image it produces is of sickness. The subconcious does not understand words like don't because it cannot make a picture from it.

Therefore the affirmations we are making and thus the pictures in our minds need to be positive so that its instructions are clear.

We can actually go one step further. "I want good health" is not the best affirmation either. This is because "wanting" is easily achievable. The subconscious will say ok you want it so you can have what you are asking for - which is wanting good health rather than having it.

A better affirmation or visualisation would be to state it in the positive as if it is already achieved.

Something like - I am enjoying the benefits of good health.

I hope that helps. I am sure others will be along to make it clearer

Chris

AKA Harry Haddock

[Ta-tsu-wa]

Originally Posted by sliccy

It just seems to me that the Law of Attraction is lacking logic in a way. It seems to me as if you almost kind of have to "trick" it into doing what you want it to do, or else it might trick you into what you don't want. Or at least it seems to me at least.

For example: someone has a thought "I don't want to be sick", to the Law of Attraction (from what I have gathered so far) you would be attracting sickness regardless. Instead your thought should be "I want good health", while I do see how this works. I can't see why the first thought "I don't want to be sick" couldn't not be valid as well.

In my view, for what it's worth, some of the confusion about the LOA you feel is due to the fact that most of the current popular teachers are mistaken about a very critical point. They will tell you that the LOA makes you 100% responsible for everything and everyone that enters your life. This, they tell you, is a required belief so that you can "take responsibility" for yourself and not be stuck in the role of the victim.

While it is true that taking responsibility for yourself is critical, it is simply not true that absolutely everything in your life is the result of your thoughts and feelings either now or at some time in the past. There are and always will be some things that come about as reactions to what other people do. This is a truth that current popular teachers of LOA simply can't accept because they feel it disrupts the symmetry of an otherwise beautiful theory.

Each of us is part of a grand Unity. You can call that Unity "God" or give it any other name you like. Yet at the same time each of us has also been given the great gift of Individuality. This is not an illusion. That Individuality is very real and very necessary. If it wasn't; if we would be happier just experiencing the Unity and nothing else then the fact that we possess and experience Individuality would constitute an unnecessary and wasteful expenditure of a lot of energy on the part of the Unity which granted us this gift of Individuality in the first place. If Unity was really all we need in order to be happy then we should have remained in Unity and skipped over this individual life we have now and we'd all have been happier and farther ahead in the game.

But that's not what happened. So either Unity has made a tremendous, wasteful error, or else there are critical reasons why each of us has been blessed with a sense of Individuality. For myself, I believe the latter to be the case. We are as we are for good, in fact necessary reasons.

It is, I believe, a great mistake to think that our ultimate goal should be to extinguish Individuality and return to nothing but Unity. Clearly, to experience both things at one and the same time must be superior to experiencing just one to the exclusion of the other.

If this is so, and I have no doubt that it is, then one of the great lessons we all have to learn is how to relate to, and interact with other Individuals. But if LOA really means that absolutely nothing comes into our experience unless we attract it, then that's not really relating to anyone else. That's just relating to our self in a virtual vacuum. That would serve little purpose.

But because others can and do encroach into our world in very real ways over which we have no absolute control, we are forced to grow by learning to cooperate and co-exist on that Individual level. This, I think, is no less important than the way we all operate on the Unity level. It is a different mode of existence, but equally important.

Certainly utilizing LOA principles helps us to have greater influence over our experiences and circumstances, and a person who learns to consciously influence things in a positive way on a consistent basis is bound to have a generally more pleasant and rewarding experience of life, but no matter how proficient at this they become there will always be some elements that are not pleasant which arise out of our interactions with other people. Perhaps it does spoil some theoretical symmetry, but it is true nonetheless.

Anyone who doubts this need only consider the case of an infant who dies shortly after birth. It would be absurd to think that in those few moments of life that infant did something that attracted its own death. For those who subscribe to the notion that the death was the result of karma from previous existence, then the law of karma would be seriously flawed since death to this infant comes before it has time to experience this new life. The infant feels nothing of any "punishment" or "consequence" for any previous actions. It has not the cognitive capability of appreciating the experience of this loss of mortal life because it lacks the cognitive capability of understanding what it is losing. Nothing is re-balanced in this way and no karmic debt would be repaid.

On the other hand, if the LOA subscribers say that the child's death was attracted by some other person, perhaps a parent who had karmic debts of their own to repay via the painful loss of a child, then these LOA people would have to admit that in fact the parents (or whoever) DID attract a consequence that directly affected the life of another (the dead child, in this case,) which, again, cuts right across the grain of that beautiful symmetry.

No matter how you view it the conclusion is inescapable that people do and always will have some degree of direct influence on other people regardless of how proficient those other people are at using LOA in their own lives. And when these sorts of things come into our lives we acknowledge that they have come to us; we determine the most useful way to respond to them, and we press forward and become better, more developed Individuals because of it. THAT, is the true "taking responsibility for our own lives."

I suspect such an encroachment could be at least in part responsible for the example given about the teenager learning to drive from the mother. Perhaps there was some attraction involved but then again, perhaps this was a case in which the actions of others simply overlapped into that young person's world with catastrophic consequences. It happens. Popular LOA teachers will never admit this because it doesn't sell books, audio programs and seminars as well as telling people they are absolutely able to create every facet of their lives because they are taking 100% responsibility for everything. But that's not surprising. Seldom in history has the truth ever been a best seller.

I do believe, however, that the Unity, which contains the sum collection of all intelligence, probably intervenes on a fairly regular basis in order to shape our experiences and to insure that the things that happen in our lives ultimately work towards our greatest good. For example, if you and I were to meet in person I am confident that either one of us, if we chose, has the capability of acting in ways that would be hurtful to the other, regardless of the LOA. But would the Unity allow that to happen? If it was for our greater good, yes. But if such would not work for our greater good I am confident this great, unified intelligence would directly intervene in some subtle way to prevent those actions. Possibly by making certain we never got to meet. Maybe in some other way.

I think there is much good we can do for ourselves via the LOA and related principles. But I think we should also take comfort in the knowledge that, though we cannot deliberately shape everything in our experience, that greater Unity is always there in the field, an absolutely infallible fail safe to insure that everything works out for our greatest good. Even those things which at present we perceive as tragedies.

Does that sound a bit more reasonable to you than the "everything that comes into our world is 100% our own responsibility because we attracted it" hypothesis?

[Edwin]

In Holland we call this " Having the wind taken out of your sails "

You guys pretty much covered all I wanted to say and more

Sliccy, I wanted to know your view of God in reaction to this post:

Here it is, we are saying God, or Being whatever you want to call it. Is all powerful, has higher intelligence and knowledge we can't even begin to dream of. Why would God than come up with such a flawed system such as the Law of Attraction? It just seems to narrow in a way, even though we say "I didn't want that credit card bill" you will put further energy into it and amplify it more. Why wasn't God able to just use logic when it came to this? If you said you didn't want it, well than you won't get it. Simple as that.

Forgive me if I am missing out on something, but this to me sounds just like our current predominant religions. God is all there is, God loves you, blah blah blah....BUT! He is also jealous! It's not OK to kill people, but if God tells you to it is...etc etc (I am just using these examples to clarify my question, I do realize that some of my examples might have been inaccurate, and over exaggerated)

I have some homework for you now !

Reading back your initial quote, your belief into God seems to hint towards a Higher Being, a superintelligent, all-powerfull mind, a person if you will.

I didn't want to alter that belief, but since you have said that you don't know what to think or believe (yet?) I can safely tell you what I think:

I do think that there is a higher intelligence, like a field of information ( rather than a person-like God with an actively thinking brain about what is to happen when and where ) from which all arises and all goes back to, both the physical world as well as that of creativity and presence. This field is constantly changing, yet it's base is the same. This base can be found when in deepest meditation within ourselves, when we surpass our individual mind and see "the observer behind the observer"

As you might have read allready in older posts here about the LOA, especially this one : A New Earth: by Eckhart Tolle
There is a cohesion between enlightenment and the LOA. I suggest you read this entire thread, especially the long posts by D. James Albert, should be about an hour, very... enlightening if you will.

If you want to understand the LOA, you have to understand the Universe, and to understand this, you have to practice meditation to reach enlightenment, in whatever degree.

You see, we have two brain hemispheres, and for every day life we need our left side the most, it is calculative, mathematical, knows how to handle an agenda, understands time only by clock or date.
This part of your brain will never understand the Universe. The Universe is too complex to ever be categorised, even tho scientists are doing their best.

We are constantly stimulated to use the left brain from a young age, because our society revolves around our calculative brain.
There are those who rely more on their right brain, and those are sometimes looked down upon for their "strange clothes" or "weird behaviour".
They are commonly known as artists.
If you want to know how that side of the brain works, check out this inspirational video: Jill Bolte Taylor's stroke of insight | Video on TED.com


Enlightenment comes when the brainhalves start to work together.
The intelligence of the left brain is not shut out like in the video of Jill Taylor, but it is enhanced by the creativity of the right side of the brain. People who experience this, change for the rest of their life. They become both inspirational spiritual people, but also very intelligently inspiriational people.
A good example is Albert Einstein.
It is not proven in any way, and I would not know how to prove it anyway, but it is my strong belief that Albert Einstein was enlightened. Check out some quotes on the internet by him, and try to remember that he was the one that created the formula that explains our physical world.
Albert Einstein Quotes

Strangest thing is that numerous people who experienced this "awakening" used to be atheist, but could not deny the presence of God and a higher interconnectedness afterwords. It took a higher intelligence, one that goes beyond that of a calculative brain, to see the "bigger picture".
"Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.” Albert Einstein

Sorry for all the links, but I am hoping to lift your viewpoint beyond that of your left brain hemisphere alone. It is ok if this is too much to handle, it took me a few years to accept all I have written. My world has become a lot prettier since I have changed my view tho.


I wish you the very same



BTW, this book really helped me with my current view: Amazon.com: The Quiet: Four Simple Steps to Peace and Contentment - Without Spending Your Life on a Mountaintop: Paul Wilson: Books
especially Book B ( Book A is meditation techniques, book B is enlightenment techniques )

and of course the book by D. James Albert ( the Realization System ) is wonderfull as well !

[sliccy]

Amazing, this thread is getting better and better!

First of, I'd like to thank everyone for taking their time to analyze my rather unclear questions once more. I think there is still a lack of communication (on my part).

Ta-tsu-wa, thank you for the post. That was very informative, and insightful. I heard of that before, by Eckhart Tolle I believe.

No matter how you view it the conclusion is inescapable that people do and will always have some degree of direct influence on other people regardless of how proficient those other people are at using LOA in their own lives. And when these sorts of things come into our lives we acknowledge that they have come to us; we determine the most useful way to respond to them, and we press forward and become better, more developed Individuals because of it. THAT, is the true "taking responsibility for our own lives."

I think Eckhart Tolle describes this by the amount of presence there is in you. If you are present enough, other peoples thoughts will not affect you. Also, I have heard of collective consciousness, which I understood to be a sort of gathering of peoples thoughts, and beliefs that will have an affect on you regardless as to what your thoughts and beliefs may be.

Please let me know if I kind of understood what you meant to say, I may need to read your post again.


Edwin, thank you for the links you have provided, I will be sure to check them all out.

Now in regard to my question that you quoted, I do realize it was a little bitter and narrowly put together. It does not describe my current beliefs at all, it used to I guess but I have given up on religion awhile ago (please don't let me confuse you again, my sense of spirituality still exists I just don't believe in any particular religion).

When you asked me what my vision about God was, I was uncertain how to exactly answer that question. Which is probably because I have a general idea, but I am always up for new ideas and views. God as a field of energy, or information that you described is not a new concept to me.

I have not read Paul Wilson's books, I have read the CwG trilogy. It covers everything you tried to explain.

We can actually go one step further. "I want good health" is not the best affirmation either. This is because "wanting" is easily achievable. The subconscious will say ok you want it so you can have what you are asking for - which is wanting good health rather than having it.

That is exactly what my original question was all about! You were explaining how the LOA does not see words or sentences, but yet it does.

This still goes back to my entire question, why would it matter to the LOA if I said "I want good health" as opposing to "I am enjoying the benefits of good health". Why would the LOA, forgive me for using this word, be so stupid? It seems like, if I say the affirmation in present tense it's good, but if I say it in future tense it's not good and LOA will not attracted "good health". I mean, it just seems like the Law of Attraction is not very smart, either that or it's just me that isn't!

I feel like a Lawyer that is trying to bend the law into a way that will convince the jury in my innocence. That is really what it feels like, almost as if I have to manipulate this system to get what I want.

And I just cannot help but feel a very big disconnect with this Law of Attraction when it gets to this. If it is me that is not understanding, or misunderstanding something please point it out to me.

Thank you everyone once again


-Andy

[GilesC]

Originally Posted by sliccy

This still goes back to my entire question, why would it matter to the LOA if I said "I want good health" as opposing to "I am benefit of being healthy". Why would the LOA, forgive me for using this word, be so stupid? It seems like, if I say the affirmation in present tense it's good, but if I say it in future tense it's not good and LOA will not attracted "good health". I mean, it just seems like the Law of Attraction is not very smart, either that or it's just me that isn't!

Well, you hit the nail on the head.
If it's future tense then the unconscious is saying "yes I can give you that belief that there will be that thing for you in the future... there we go... done" It has not problem giving you "wants" as they are easily achieved. A want is always a want.
If you put it in the present tense, you are convincing the unconscious mind that it already has that thing. If there is an unbalance between what really is and what the unconscious mind believes there is, then we become attracted to the things that help to remove that unbalance and achieve what the unconscious mind is believing. Hence the law of attraction.

Yes, you could say that the law of attraction is not smart, and why should it be.

It just seems to me that the Law of Attraction is lacking logic in a way. It seems to me as if you almost kind of have to "trick" it into doing what you want it to do, or else it might trick you into what you don't want. Or at least it seems to me at least.

The law of attraction is really our mind. So yes you are having to trick it so that you are using your mind as the tool it is intended for (you are in control of your mind)rather than the mind taking control of you.

The law of attraction is not really some external entity with an intelligence of it's own, it is a part of every one of us.

Hugs

Giles

[Edwin]

Originally Posted by sliccy

Amazing, this thread is getting better and better!

agreed

That is exactly what my original question was all about! You were explaining how the LOA does not see words or sentences, but yet it does.

This still goes back to my entire question, why would it matter to the LOA if I said "I want good health" as opposing to "I am enjoying the benefits of good health". Why would the LOA, forgive me for using this word, be so stupid? It seems like, if I say the affirmation in present tense it's good, but if I say it in future tense it's not good and LOA will not attracted "good health". I mean, it just seems like the Law of Attraction is not very smart, either that or it's just me that isn't!

I feel like a Lawyer that is trying to bend the law into a way that will convince the jury in my innocence. That is really what it feels like, almost as if I have to manipulate this system to get what I want.

And I just cannot help but feel a very big disconnect with this Law of Attraction when it gets to this. If it is me that is not understanding, or misunderstanding something please point it out to me.

Thank you everyone once again


-Andy

The LOA doesn't care about words, at all even !
Thinking words will even amount to no result !

We need to be this clear about our goal because of a translation error in our brain rather than outside our brain.
You see, it is our emotions that trigger the LOA. The ( for lack of a better word ) vibrations we emit come not from words at all.

However to trigger the emotions, we need to describe a goal that our emotions can easily pick up. When the message we give our emotions is dualistic or unclear, we get unclear or dualistic emotions, and those are less powerfull.
The biggest problem is that here again two brainhalves are at work, mind is left hemisphere, emotions are right hemisphere ( at least the "higher" emotions, basic ones like anger and fear come from the "old brain" which is like an extension of our spinal cord, sometimes referred to as our "lizard brain" ) and the communication between them is poor.
This is why LOA guru's say that you have to visualise your goal as if it is allready there, like you are living the life you visualise. This will emit the strongest vibrations from the strongest emotions.

So, looking back at your question, you tried ( again ) to give the LOA personalised intelligence, so I guess your view of the world/LOA/God isn't yet free from a "One God, one ruler" viewpoint.

Why would the LOA, forgive me for using this word, be so stupid?

In order to be stupid, there has to be a brain. There is no brain. Only Presence.

The collective intelligence I was talking about is not an intelligence that can be understood on a "human intellect" level as I tried to explain in my last post.
Try to think of the intelligence of a tree, growing towards the sun, avoiding the outlines of a road where cars and trucks race by, because the space which the trucks drive within is harmful, and this is remembered by the tree even tho it has no brain.
Take 2 acorns from the same tree, plant them on a distance of a few feet apart, and even tho the basic shape "tree" can be recognised, neither one will grow exactly the same, as the tree adapts to the part of the world it exists in. How ? Does it recognise the difference on an intellectual level ? On an emotional level ? Or on the level of Presence ? It seems intelligent design, it is even, but no mind has been used to design it. If you feel a hint of what I mean, but can't rationalise it, you are starting to "see" with both sides of the brain, as feeble as the connection still is at this moment.

In a way, we might even say: Why is our brain so stupid that it can't automatically emit the right vibes in order for the LOA to work ?

Still, your question is a very good one, because the answer will ( hopefully if I was able to bring across what I wanted ) give you more insight, and insights lead to enlightenment just as much as meditation.

So keep on asking

[flossie]

I just wanted to say thanks to everyone on this thread for all you thoughts and informtion. I have been having a lot of questions like Andy and have found this really good reading, although i admit i am going to have to go back over it all a couple of times to really get it all straight in my head.

thanks again and good luck on your journey everyone

April

[enlighteneduk]

Wow!! I have been away for a few days, so I missed so many good replies until now. Thanks guys, some fantastic food for thought there, never thought my original thread would provoke so much wonderful discussion!!

Heather